Project Es300 Engine Gel!

[JPI]

We have the ES300 in our shop with engine gel. I will take a lot of pics and keep you guys posted with the process. Who want to host thep pics for me? We are going to pull the heads off today.

JPI

[SW03ES]

JPI- Feel free to post the pics in the gallery, we'll host them, thats great I look forward to seeing them...

[99lsguy]

JPI,

Thanks for the upcoming pictures. And as always, for your work and expertise in our posts. You are a truste source!

99

[JPI]

Ok, it won't let me upload the pics. We were busy with everything at the shop and the ES300 was put on hold, Plus We received the wrong headgaskets. So far we pulled the heads off. Clean them off and replaced all the valve steam seals. We pulled the #1 and 2 oil pan off. Next thing will be the oil pump. Other then that, We are going back in tomorrow and start this baby up. The bottom end looks good, we are getting good compression. Can I email you the pics? Lesson learn guys CHANGE YOUR OIL EVERY 5,000 MILES! Also when you replace the Headgaskets make sure they give you RIGHT headgaskets. Pics will be up soon.

JPI

[SW03ES]

Do you get a warning message when you try to upload them? Which one?

[blake918]

JP, I'm guessing the gel pics are up...eng1,2,3,etc.? What year is that ES? That's certainly great incentive for us to keep up with the oil changes :D !

[JPI]

99 ES300 with 45k miles. The pics are up.........Can someone host them and post on here?

JPI

[blake918]

Here ya go ;) ...'99 ES300. Thanks for sharing the pics JP.

[Lexusfreak]

What exactly has been the cause of this condition? IE: lack of regular oil changes?, neglect? How often did this owner change the oil? Please explain.

Thanks.

[Lex3486]

WOW! My 93 looked a million times better than that! That's a shame...anyone who can't change their oil in a 35-40k dollar car needs some serious help...that's a shame

[JPI]

Cause: Lack of oil change. I've seen cars with 15k miles on the clock and it's has gel.

JPI

[Sunbeam]

Can we assume that if you change your oil religiously (but at 7500 miles) and you use a synthethic oil (I use Redline), then this problem cannot, by definition, occur?

[JPI]

One of my client use Mobil synthetic oil but he change his every 10k. He needs a new engine. I've seen a lot of strange things with this v6.

JPI

[Lexusfreak]

I have 73,000kms on my 01' ES (45,000 miles) & I purchased an extended "Lexus" preowned warranty also. That means they had to go over the car with a "fine tooth comb"......I have all service records for the car & the previous owner was pretty good at regular oil changes. On the work order however, they did a oil & filter change with an "oil cleaner" & an "ultra supreme" (whatever that is) for an additional total of $18.00 on top of the oil change. I figure that it was just the Lexus dealer "covering their butts" cause they know about this condition & wanted to deliver the car in peak condition so if there is any engine problems, the blame will be on me down the road if I do not religiously change the oil & filter? I'm not worried anyways, as I will use synthetic & change it every 3,000 miles plus use the Mobil 1 oil filters to boot. :D

[steviej]

JPI, techinical questions for you:

(I want to draw upon you expertise and experience with sludged engines)

1. the removed parts that are on the bench. Will a simply swim in the GUNK tank take the sludged oil off?

2, Is the sludge present in the engine block too, or does this stuff usually confine itself to the valve covers and camshaft areas? If the sludge builds up in the block, how is that cleaned out or is it dissolved by chemical means?

3. The parts that are functioning in the sludge, do they tend to become more fatiqued due to increased friction and less heat transfer to fluid oil.

4. Do the engines that have successfully had the sludge removed perform well and last a decent amount of time? Or are they more prone to sludging again?

5. I would assume that there are different degrees of sludging and it is variable to when each motor will manifest problems due to sludging, correct.

sorry for the quesitons, but my analytical/technical brain is in play today.

steviej

[JPI]

JPI, techinical questions for you:

(I want to draw upon you expertise and experience with sludged engines)

1.  the removed parts that are on the bench.  Will a simply swim in the GUNK tank take the sludged oil off?

2,  Is the sludge present in the engine block too, or does this stuff usually confine itself to the valve covers and camshaft areas?  If the sludge builds up in the block, how is that cleaned out or is it dissolved by chemical means?

3.  The parts that are functioning in the sludge, do they tend to become more fatiqued due to increased friction and less heat transfer to fluid oil.

4.  Do the engines that have successfully had the sludge removed perform well and last a decent amount of time?  Or are they more prone to sludging again?

5.  I would assume that there are different degrees of sludging and it is variable to when each motor will manifest problems due to sludging, correct.

sorry for the quesitons, but my analytical/technical brain is in play today.

steviej

1) I usually leave all the buckets, camshafts etc with the heads when I put them in the parts washer.

2) Sludge is everywhere you will have to use brake clean in order to get them off the engine block. I usually replace the Valve covers.

3) The answer is yes. That is why people need a new engine

4) I've done a lot of these and they are pretty much run like a new engine.

5) Yes sir, It will be case by case. Some of them all you have to do is pull the head offs, oil pan #1 and 2. Send them to the parts washer and clean them. I haven't replace a lot of short block on these. Probably about 5 out of 150 jobs. Not too bad. The important thing though, You will have to replace the oil pump. Some people like to take the short cut and ended up bite them in the !Removed!. I don't................. NOw let me get back to work and make some money. Thank you for the questions steve. :P

JPI

[Lexusfreak]

Very good questions. However what I can't understand for the life of me is how anybody can put that kind of cash down on a vehicle (not to mention the type of vehicle it is!) and neglect it that way! Blows my mind there was a lady (no gender descrimination intended) that was in the Nissan dealer the day I picked up my new Maxima 3 years ago (she had a 2000) with 50,000kms (30,000 miles) & her engine blew cause she never changed the oil since the day she bought it! The engine was going to cost her close to $14,000 to replace! How difficult is it to go into a oil change establishment every few months & spend less than $30 for an oil change! People like this should take public transportation as far as I'm concerned. <_<

[Blklex96]

Is it lack of oil changes or is it something that is common with the Toyota/Lexus engines? There are several web sites out there that have documented on-going problems with engine sludge. After just experiencing this myself, I am trying to investigate if this is a common problem. I have noticed several other members mentioning the same symptoms-excessive smoke on start up, faster oil consumption, etc. Anyone have any other feedback on this?

[JPI]

This is a very common problem on the V6 due to poorly designed. I've seen sludge on the V8 also but then this woman doesn't change her oil in 30k miles. She had to put $8k out for a new engine.

JPI

[monarch]

Is it lack of oil changes or is it something that is common with the Toyota/Lexus engines?

V6 owners who change their oil at least every 5,000 miles or 6 months don't have any sludge problems and for 2004, Lexus and Toyota have made the 5,000 mile / 6 month rule mandatory for the entire product line.

Between 1974-1985 Toyota developed a reputation of building bulletproof "beater" cars that could windstand an enormous amount of maintenance neglect and driver abuse. Since the late 1980's however, Toyota owners that treat their vehicles like ghetto cars are learning the hard way there is a a big price to pay. The 1997- early '02 V6's, in particular ,are the most sensitive to consequences of maintenance neglect.

If V6 owners will simply change the oil on time and keep up with the required cooling system and tune up service, their engines will last as long as any other Toyota engine (decades and hundreds of thousands of miles).

[steviej]

Dodge, particularly the Durango, has had its share of sludging problems.

As much as the Toyo V6 is prone to sludging, it also comes down to operator error.

Sludging can be avoided if people just take care of their cars. The people that don't.......well they are the ones not frequenting these forums. :chairshot:

steviej

[Blklex96]

I agree with keeping your car maintanined on a regular basis. I also want to post this response I received regarding some recourse on these engines. Hope this helps the rest of you guys. ..

Has Toyota notified you about its "Customer Support

Program" for "Engine

Oil Gelation?"

Who: Owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles

with 3.0L IMZ V-6

engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with the now

discontinued 2.2L

four cylinder engines. Nine models are included.

What: Engine oil sludge accumulation in the oil pan,

valve covers, and/or

cylinder heads with possible symptoms such as blue

smoke on cold start up

and oil consumption. Toyota maintains this "oil

gelation" is caused by the

owner's improper maintenance of the vehicle! The

owners disagree.

When: Former, current, and repeat repairs for

sludge-related damage are

covered for a period of 8 years from date of first

sale or lease with

unlimited mileage. This coverage includes all

reasonable incidental

expenses. If questions, consult with affected owners

in the groups listed

below.

Where: Effective April 3, 2002. Contact the Toyota

hotline at

1-888-802-9436. You'll be asked to show a reasonable

effort (not all oil

change receipts are required) to regularly maintain

your vehicle. Toyota

considers this a generous offer especially since the

owner is at fault!

Proceed cautiously.

What if you have received no letter? OR, you want more

information?

1) First, notify Toyota via certified letter with

return receipt requested

and give your case details. Let it know you have NOT

received your letter.

Ask it when you will get your letter, too.

2) Notify the National Highway Traffic Safety

Administration at

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov and the Federal Trade

Commission at

http://www.ftc.gov. NHTSA: 1-800-424-9393.

3) Also, file with the Center for Auto Safety at

http://www.autosafety.org

and Consumer Affairs at

http://www.consumeraffairs.com. Read other owner

stories there.

4) Visit the "Toyota" folder in Cartrackers "Forums"

at

http://www.cartrackers.com and find the links to

articles listed there. You

should also post your own story there for others to

read.

5) Read the third Automotive News article "Toyota

broadens sludge-repair

program--Automaker alters V-6, insists neglect is

cause" by Richard Truett

published on April 4, 2002.

What if you want to do MORE in the way of consumer

action? OR, you don't

qualify for CSP?

6) Join other owners in the "Toyota Sludge Yahoo

Group" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyotasludge. Subscribe

at

"toyotasludge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com." Post at

"toyotasludge@yahoogroups.com."

7) Join "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution" at

http://communities.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteForResolution.

Read other owner

stories there.

8) Visit the "Complaint Station for Toyota" at

http://www.thecomplaintstation.com. Please ignore

those who are strongly

countering the legitimate complaints of other Toyota

owners who have had

major problems.

9) Visit Edmund's Town Hall at http://www.edmunds.com.

First, you must

obtain a login and password to be able to access the

original (over 6,000

posts) "Engine Sludge?" discussion that began January

5, 2001. There are

other Toyota sludge discussions. All Toyota sludge

discussions have been

CLOSED at this site as of May, 2002.

10) Read other stories and post your own at

http://www.RipOffReport.com

under "Toyota" or "Lexus."

11) Contact cblake@erols.com for more resources and

links, as well as to

discuss other concerns with your Toyota vehicle,

customer service, or

warranty issues. Network with other owners to stay

informed on these auto

consumer matters and to work collectively!

Stay-tuned?

[xsohaib]

Well,the blue smoke that everyone mentions, I USED to have that in my 92 ES300 about 2-3 years ago when I first bought it, not any more for the past 1.5-2 years, is that possible that the sludge may have gone after I had owned it, I change the oil with conventional oil at toyota/lexus dea;erships religously every 2-3 months even if the car has had only 2K miles in that period. I acquired the car at 92K miles and now it has 118K miles. Most of the miles I have accumulated on the car have been due tp driving it from Alaska to Texas and then from texas to Boston.

I am kindda worried about this gelling problem. Oh and the car does not consume any oil at all.

Thanks

Sohaib

[Lex_Lover]

I just replaced a motor on my 1997 ES300 and the motor was changed fairly frequently. Corporate Lexus declined to pay for ANY repair whatsoever Basically they said :chairshot:

[amf1932]

It seems that the gelling is not a new problem and is something that ALL engines have had ever since the advent of internal combustion. I remember when you could flush out most of the gelling with a product that was called Cisco Solvent. You'd fill your crankcase with it, run the engine for about half an hour, flush it out and fill the crankcase with new oil. It worked great, but I don't know whether this product is manufactured anymore. I'm sure they have other products on the market now though.