Should I Spend $3000 - $4000 On Fixing Ls430 With 130,000 Mi

[shanen]

Had Timing Belt & Water pump replaced just over a year ago. The other day the bearing on the waterpump failed taking out the timing belt. Shop says that the timing is of & they have to take the head off to see what the damage is...could be $3 - $4k to fix. Is it worth fixing?

I am amazed that the water pump failed & it looks like the new water pump was only under warranty for 12 months for which we are over by a few weeks. How can a water pump last for 90,000 miles but only have a warranty of 12 months?

any advice is appreciated. thanks.

[027922]

I would plead your case to the dealer and see if they will stand behind the water pump for (just) more than 12 months. Keeping the car depends on how much you like it of course. LSs typically can go well over 200k with proper maintenance. Good luck.

[curiousB]

Had Timing Belt & Water pump replaced just over a year ago. The other day the bearing on the waterpump failed taking out the timing belt. Shop says that the timing is of & they have to take the head off to see what the damage is...could be $3 - $4k to fix. Is it worth fixing?

I am amazed that the water pump failed & it looks like the new water pump was only under warranty for 12 months for which we are over by a few weeks. How can a water pump last for 90,000 miles but only have a warranty of 12 months?

any advice is appreciated. thanks.

Sounds a little suspicious. A 1 year old water pump bearing seizing? Maybe truth is they never changed the old water pump? Did the timing belt actually snap? Not sure why a water pump seizing would destroy a timing belt. Also can’t picture how the water pump would just seize. They typically fail by making noise (bearing gone) and leaking coolant. The water pump is powered by the serpentine belt. Even still if timing belt isn't broken then there is no reason to take off heads…

I think I'd get a second opinion. Sounds like someone is on a fishing expedition and seeing how far they can push you. As long as you don't blink they keep pumping up the balloon.

[eatingupblacktop]

Had Timing Belt & Water pump replaced just over a year ago. The other day the bearing on the waterpump failed taking out the timing belt. Shop says that the timing is of & they have to take the head off to see what the damage is...could be $3 - $4k to fix. Is it worth fixing?

I am amazed that the water pump failed & it looks like the new water pump was only under warranty for 12 months for which we are over by a few weeks. How can a water pump last for 90,000 miles but only have a warranty of 12 months?

any advice is appreciated. thanks.

Sounds a little suspicious. A 1 year old water pump bearing seizing? Maybe truth is they never changed the old water pump? Did the timing belt actually snap? Not sure why a water pump seizing would destroy a timing belt. Also can't picture how the water pump would just seize. They typically fail by making noise (bearing gone) and leaking coolant. The water pump is powered by the serpentine belt. Even still if timing belt isn't broken then there is no reason to take off heads…

I think I'd get a second opinion. Sounds like someone is on a fishing expedition and seeing how far they can push you. As long as you don't blink they keep pumping up the balloon.

Yes WP's can certainly sieze and are a common reason for TB failures. When they sieze, the belt's teeth get shredded or else it breaks. Even though it's for a gen1 LS, the following link will give you an idea of what's involved in doing the TB/WP service: http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/engine/timingbelt.html

The pump should not have failed after just 12 mths. As B suggests, the WP may not have been replaced at your last TB service. You should always ask for replaced parts to be returned to you. Also look at your bill to see if it's listed along with the part number. Did they use new coolant? Did they replace pulleys/tensioner? Was this done at a dealer or indy shop? This sounds very suspicious. If this was done by an indy, I would not go back there. Since you have an interference engine, there is the possibility of damage. Get a second opinion from a qualified shop that has experience with Lexus. Get a report in writing, then approach the first shop to cover the resultant costs. If the work was done by a dealer, you should have no probs getting repairs done under warranty even if you're over by a few weeks.

[curiousB]

Yes WP's can certainly sieze and are a common reason for TB failures. When they sieze, the belt's teeth get shredded or else it breaks. Even though it's for a gen1 LS, the following link will give you an idea of what's involved in doing the TB/WP service:

If a water pump can seize that severely I wonder why they wouldn't have designed the serpentine belt weaker or put a sacrificial key in the WP pulley so that would fail instead of TB. The newer cars are interference engines. A seized water pump can create $4000 engine repair? As well engineered as these car are there are a few “head scratchers” that just don’t pass the common sense test.

[eatingupblacktop]

Yes WP's can certainly sieze and are a common reason for TB failures. When they sieze, the belt's teeth get shredded or else it breaks. Even though it's for a gen1 LS, the following link will give you an idea of what's involved in doing the TB/WP service:

If a water pump can seize that severely I wonder why they wouldn't have designed the serpentine belt weaker or put a sacrificial key in the WP pulley so that would fail instead of TB. The newer cars are interference engines. A seized water pump can create $4000 engine repair? As well engineered as these car are there are a few "head scratchers" that just don't pass the common sense test.

They must have heard you B, the 460 now has a timing chain!

[SW03ES]

Who did the TB/WP service? The dealer?

Was it a new pump or remanufactured? OEM or aftermarket?

I would demand help with this repair...

[landar]

They must have heard you B, the 460 now has a timing chain!

Only on the LS. The SC still has a belt.

[shanen]

Thanks for the replies.

Quick Update. I found the original receipt & it was actually a bit longer the timing belt job was actually done in February 2007 so its been longer than a year & about 40,000 miles since it was done. The job was done a reputable local mechanic that has done a lot of work our 2 Lexus'.

They showed me the parts & I believe they were replaced when they did the job. They called the parts shop where they purchased the water pump & are trying to get the manufacturer of the pump to pay for the work that needs to be done. I know its a long shot but its worth a try.

My wife really loves the car so this is a tough decision. If we have the work done I will certainly make sure we have an OEM water pump & timing belt.

[eatingupblacktop]

Thanks for the replies.

Quick Update. I found the original receipt & it was actually a bit longer the timing belt job was actually done in February 2007 so its been longer than a year & about 40,000 miles since it was done. The job was done a reputable local mechanic that has done a lot of work our 2 Lexus'.

They showed me the parts & I believe they were replaced when they did the job. They called the parts shop where they purchased the water pump & are trying to get the manufacturer of the pump to pay for the work that needs to be done. I know its a long shot but its worth a try.

My wife really loves the car so this is a tough decision. If we have the work done I will certainly make sure we have an OEM water pump & timing belt.

Hindsight is always a difficult way to learn! Considerations I can offer. On any major repairs/service, use only oem. If you're using an indie, make sure they understand this is what you want and for them not to use aftermarket parts. Search the forums for all the information you can find on the repair before going ahead. Make sure the shop doing the work has done it more than once before and on your particular model. Don't just accept their assurance that they are familiar with your car. They must have done specifically the work you are requesting. Discuss the repair with the shop using the info you've researched. If you have any doubts/questions, post them on the forum for some advice/insight etc.

Good luck with your pursuit. You might have some leverage in that you have a history with this shop. If you decide to do the repairs, make sure everything that should be replaced gets replaced.

[RDM]

If a water pump can seize that severely I wonder why they wouldn't have designed the serpentine belt weaker or put a sacrificial key in the WP pulley so that would fail instead of TB. The newer cars are interference engines. A seized water pump can create $4000 engine repair? As well engineered as these car are there are a few “head scratchers” that just don’t pass the common sense test.

The serpentine belt has nothing to do with the water pump. Nothing. The serpentine belt drives the alternator, PS pump, A/C, and the clutch fan. The water pump is driven directly by the timing belt. Why would creating a 'weaker' serpentine belt do anything? That's like saying they should create a weaker tire so when the shock blows out, the tire gives way. Two completely unrelated things.

As for the water pump seizing, it's very common on lower quality pieces, the bearing overheats and locks up, even with OEM parts it can happen but if it was some Chinese made part there's no telling how long it would last. My water pump seized at 174k miles ( I didn't know the car's history so it could have been replaced previously), though it was obvious to me when it did and I shut the car off before the timing belt could heat up and break. When it breaks, there's contact between the pistons and valves on an interference engine. I'd say the teardown and possible rebuilding/replacing the heads is easily a $4k job with the timing belt/water pump included.

My choice would be to locate a lower mileage engine, do the service while it's out (it's simple when it's on a stand), then swap it in. You can usually find a complete engine/harness for no more than $2k from a respectable salvage yard, the swap is a day's work with the appropriate knowledge.

[curiousB]

The serpentine belt has nothing to do with the water pump. Nothing. The serpentine belt drives the alternator, PS pump, A/C, and the clutch fan. The water pump is driven directly by the timing belt. Why would creating a 'weaker' serpentine belt do anything? That's like saying they should create a weaker tire so when the shock blows out, the tire gives way. Two completely unrelated things.

My mistake I thought the water pump had an extended shaft and pulley off of the serpentine belt for drive. That’s why I didn't understand the damage to the TB.

So now I have to revise my priority of engineering blunders on this car. I had previously ranked the starter motor (an electromechanical component prone to fail) buried underneath the intake manifold as the dumbest design flaw. I have to say burying a water pump underneath an already overly complicated progressive assembly of the TB was a close second. Now I better understand the TB also drives the water pump and past the early 2000’s this became an interference engine, this now tops my list of design blunders.

[Just hanging on]

The serpentine belt has nothing to do with the water pump. Nothing. The serpentine belt drives the alternator, PS pump, A/C, and the clutch fan. The water pump is driven directly by the timing belt. Why would creating a 'weaker' serpentine belt do anything? That's like saying they should create a weaker tire so when the shock blows out, the tire gives way. Two completely unrelated things.

My mistake I thought the water pump had an extended shaft and pulley off of the serpentine belt for drive. That’s why I didn't understand the damage to the TB.

So now I have to revise my priority of engineering blunders on this car. I had previously ranked the starter motor (an electromechanical component prone to fail) buried underneath the intake manifold as the dumbest design flaw. I have to say burying a water pump underneath an already overly complicated progressive assembly of the TB was a close second. Now I better understand the TB also drives the water pump and past the early 2000’s this became an interference engine, this now tops my list of design blunders.

I somewhat agree but this arrangement of the timing belt driving the water pump is widely used across many engine designs. It's not exclusively a Lexus design. It's repair industry practice to replace the water pump at every timing belt replacement, if that practice is followed, one should never have a water pump issue.

[landar]

I somewhat agree but this arrangement of the timing belt driving the water pump is widely used across many engine designs. It's not exclusively a Lexus design. It's repair industry practice to replace the water pump at every timing belt replacement, if that practice is followed, one should never have a water pump issue.

From this thread you can see how important the coolant pump operation is to the life of the timing belt. And yet, the Lexus maintenance schedule does not

specify a pump replacement at 90k miles. I just quizzed the service people at my local dealer about changing the pump with the TB. They said that they "inspect" the pump and if it shows signs of leaking they will replace. If not, the existing pump stays. Ditto for the pulleys. The reason given was that the customer is usually shell-shocked about the TB replacement price and they are trying to keep the shock factor toned down. It also makes business sense to me. The customer may be returning soon for a failed pump. More revenue.

Summarizing the lessons learned in this thread: Change the pump with the TB but use OEM parts, ie:Toyota

I would think you should also use the Toyota "red" coolant as well as it has the proper lubricants mixed in to keep that pump happy.

And important to keep the coolant changed as per the maintenance schedule.

If you use an Indie, purchase the OEM parts yourself and hand them to the mechanic to eliminate that potential misunderstanding.

[RDM]

Exactly. Most all vehicles that run a timing belt drive the water pump off said belt, all Toyota vehicles do, Kia, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, and many others.

Water pumps rarely seize up if it's an OEM part, the worst thing that happens is they begin to leak a little. But with enough miles on it or if it's a cheap Taiwan made part it's possible the bearing can overheat, you have to realize the load on one versus a wheel bearing. A water pump spins faster and has way less airflow across it, plus it's constantly cycling corrosive fluids across the back of it. The degradation from that breaks down the bearing.

On Chrysler engines they do indeed design the timing belt to 'strip' if the pump seizes, but since most all their V6s are interference engines that $20 timing belt will yield an entire rebuild of both cylinder heads.

[Schnitz]

My choice would be to locate a lower mileage engine, do the service while it's out (it's simple when it's on a stand), then swap it in. You can usually find a complete engine/harness for no more than $2k from a respectable salvage yard, the swap is a day's work with the appropriate knowledge.

Ditto. Easiest, cheapest most reliable fix.

[eatingupblacktop]

My choice would be to locate a lower mileage engine, do the service while it's out (it's simple when it's on a stand), then swap it in. You can usually find a complete engine/harness for no more than $2k from a respectable salvage yard, the swap is a day's work with the appropriate knowledge.

Ditto. Easiest, cheapest most reliable fix.

Good luck finding a 3UZFE FOR $2k!

[RDM]

My choice would be to locate a lower mileage engine, do the service while it's out (it's simple when it's on a stand), then swap it in. You can usually find a complete engine/harness for no more than $2k from a respectable salvage yard, the swap is a day's work with the appropriate knowledge.

Ditto. Easiest, cheapest most reliable fix.

Good luck finding a 3UZFE FOR $2k!

Made one phone call, found one in Wisconsin for $2200 shipped. Sure there are plenty going for double that, you do actually have to research it a little, they don't fall out of the sky at that price. Even at $3500 it's cheaper than a top end rebuild.

[eatingupblacktop]

... could be $3 - $4k to fix. Is it worth fixing?

Made one phone call, found one in Wisconsin for $2200 shipped. Sure there are plenty going for double that, you do actually have to research it a little, they don't fall out of the sky at that price. Even at $3500 it's cheaper than a top end rebuild.

Or you could add $10k + and get one of these:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/club-lexus...e-to-order.html

[shanen]

My choice would be to locate a lower mileage engine, do the service while it's out (it's simple when it's on a stand), then swap it in. You can usually find a complete engine/harness for no more than $2k from a respectable salvage yard, the swap is a day's work with the appropriate knowledge.

Ditto. Easiest, cheapest most reliable fix.

Good luck finding a 3UZFE FOR $2k!

Made one phone call, found one in Wisconsin for $2200 shipped. Sure there are plenty going for double that, you do actually have to research it a little, they don't fall out of the sky at that price. Even at $3500 it's cheaper than a top end rebuild.

any chance you could tell me that salvage yard in Wisconsin? I have my shop looking for one around Boston. thanks.

[nc211]

Shanen, question: Do you have a loan against the car? If not, what about just put that $3k-$4k towards the purchase of a newer LS instead, along with the broken LS you've got now? To me, dumping that kind of money into a depreciating asset, such as a car, would be a tough pill to swallow. Plus, don't forget about the added expense of labor and the most likely frustration levels that are probably going to go along with having to adjust all the sensors and such of a new engine, like the throttle position sensor, a/c controls, etc... I would have to think that simply swapping out a 3UZ engine is more then a plug/play operation. Not to mention the need to explain to any future purchaser or dealership upon trade in why you've got two different vin numbers (one for the car, one on the engine block) and what that could do to the value of the car. But, if this is the avenue you decide to take, then I'd invest a couple hundred dollars more for a set of new motor mounts too, since you're going to have direct access to them during the process. Plus, make sure whatever engine you buy, that you're not walking into another big ticket item just aroud the corner....the timing belt/water pump service!

In my own personal opinion, if my car needs a new engine, then I need a new(er) car.

[killerFatty]

Or you could add $10k + and get one of these:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/club-lexus...e-to-order.html

OO MY GOD I just found something to live for. That is the best link ever posted in this forum. Thank You. All my dreams have just become possible. :D

[eatingupblacktop]

Or you could add $10k + and get one of these:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/club-lexus...e-to-order.html

OO MY GOD I just found something to live for. That is the best link ever posted in this forum. Thank You. All my dreams have just become possible. :D

Killer, if you liked that link, with a bit more scratch you could go for one of these (short video but you'll get the feel - check out the custom throttle bodies)

Turn up the audio for this monster:

[killerFatty]

OOO MY GOODNESS!! :D Where can I get one? I have always loved those sc400s. What kind of ecu would you run with a supercharged engine like that? A mega squert or something? When I have the time and money I will build my a twin turbo 1uz bored and stroked with a custom intake manifold like that one. 1000WHP goal. OO man I would be tire rack's number one customer if I had me one of those! HAHA :D :D :D