So, I'm Thinking Of Two New Cars Too

[wlk12]

I've got just three words for you regarding the IS : Far too small....

Unless one wants an attractive "coupe-like" 2+2 with outstanding agility and braking, and excellent RWD handling.

Different strokes for different folks ;)

Bill K.

[Kyle Petree]

I see LOTS of them on the road around here. Apparently people here like them.

Something being "ugly" is not a fact. People have different tastes and opinions, I quite like the 5 series.

I also like the 5 series but if I were to get a BMW I'd get the M3 Convertible.

[smooth1]

Yeah, I see lots of them on the road too. I agree, my opinion may or may not represent the public at large. But most people I talk to, if they like the 3, they hate the 5, and also like the 6, if they like the 5, they also like the 7, and are so so on the 6. So it's a pretty polarizing line up right now. The new 5 series coming out next year is supposed to be pretty hot looking though, from what I've heard it looks more like the CS that was supposed to come out, but has been put on hold. That would be really nice! The fat bottom 5 series would definately turn the corner on design then!

[The G Man]

Yeah, I see lots of them on the road too. I agree, my opinion may or may not represent the public at large. But most people I talk to, if they like the 3, they hate the 5, and also like the 6, if they like the 5, they also like the 7, and are so so on the 6. So it's a pretty polarizing line up right now. The new 5 series coming out next year is supposed to be pretty hot looking though, from what I've heard it looks more like the CS that was supposed to come out, but has been put on hold. That would be really nice! The fat bottom 5 series would definately turn the corner on design then!

There are a few people out there that like the Chris Bangle designed 5, 6 and 7 series. The new 5 and 7 series will be once again classic BMW design. It will not have the ugly lines of the old 5 and 7 series. Most 5 series on the road are lease at a bargain basement price, that is why there are so many of them.

[nc211]

I highly doubt anyone with the ability to drive a BMW is doing so because of bargain basement prices. They drive them, because they like them. Your opinion on looks, is just that, YOUR opinion.

If I wanted an Audi, as you suggested, then I'd just get a VW.

SWO: I like the 5 series as well, and have given it some thought. We might consider the 5 series wagon once we get a little more serious about this down the road. But we've always loved the little 3 series wagons. They're hard to find, as folks who seem to buy them, keep them forever.

What's made up my mind about going with BMW, is the same reason why I've gone with Lexus over the years, the ownership loyalty. There is something to be said about the fact that BMW has a huge following of fans that keep coming back to them time and time again, even with their somewhat spotty maintenance history. I'm willing to give it a try. The only Lexus I'd be interested in these days is a late model LS430. But, have no need for it.

In terms of costs. This past weekend when I finally had the chance to sit in a new design 3 series, we were in the 4runner. A toyota dealership was next door. I need a new fan belt for the 4runner, as it's starting to chatter, so I walked over to the parts department to buy one....they said $90! I walked. I was curoius, so I went to the BMW parts counter and asked for a price on a fan belt for a 745.....$40.

[blake918]

A BM-Trouble You, huh? :D I'd have to get the 335D; it's one of my favorites! The 5 series is nice, but they are ancient now.

Here's a 335D, and it's not even that far from you....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-3-Serie...5fCarsQ5fTrucks

[The G Man]

I highly doubt anyone with the ability to drive a BMW is doing so because of bargain basement prices. They drive them, because they like them. Your opinion on looks, is just that, YOUR opinion.

If I wanted an Audi, as you suggested, then I'd just get a VW.

What's made up my mind about going with BMW, is the same reason why I've gone with Lexus over the years, the ownership loyalty. There is something to be said about the fact that BMW has a huge following of fans that keep coming back to them time and time again, even with their somewhat spotty maintenance history. I'm willing to give it a try. The only Lexus I'd be interested in these days is a late model LS430. But, have no need for it.

In terms of costs. This past weekend when I finally had the chance to sit in a new design 3 series, we were in the 4runner. A toyota dealership was next door. I need a new fan belt for the 4runner, as it's starting to chatter, so I walked over to the parts department to buy one....they said $90! I walked. I was curoius, so I went to the BMW parts counter and asked for a price on a fan belt for a 745.....$40.

You do know that VW is a different company from Audi right, and they do not share platform or parts in their cars? I believe the only Audi that share platform with VW is the cheaper model such as the A1 and the A3. If you know Audi's history, you will know that its does not the same relationship as Toyota and Lexus.

Sure people buy BMW because of price, If I can lease a 5 series or a ES350 for the same price, I would go with the 5 series. The 3 series wagon are so hard to find because BMW dont sell too many here in the US, they are ugly and have a cheap Kmart interior. Of course if all you want is performance and everything else is subpar, then BMW is the perfect car for you. By the way, most people cannot affort to keep BMW for ever, they cost an arm and a leg to maintain after warranty.

BMW, as a comapny, does not currently have the highest ownership loyalty rating, but the 3 series is still selling well for BMW and is still a leader in owner loyalty. Acoording to Truecar.com, Honda currently has the most loyal customers, growing from 55 percent to 58 percent of owners who say they would buy another Honda.

I been saying this for years, Lexus and Toyota parts are not cheap anymore when compare to the German cars.

[1990LS400]

You do know that VW is a different company from Audi right, and they do not share platform or parts in their cars? I believe the only Audi that share platform with VW is the cheaper model such as the A1 and the A3. If you know Audi's history, you will know that its does not the same relationship as Toyota and Lexus.

Maybe some reading about Audi history is needed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi

I was in Germany, courtesy of the U.S. Army, not all that long after VW revived the Audi brand and before they launched the Audi brand in the U.S. in about 1973. Audi's and VW's share a huge number of parts from the bottom to the top of both lines and have many of the same quality problems. IMO, an Audi is just a VW pig with lipstick.

It would be cool if BMW sold the long wheel base Chinese market version of the 5-series in the U.S.? 5 1/2 more inches of rear seat legroom -- they probably wouldn't sell nearly as many 7-series here if they did that. Look at the attached photo of the backseat area of the 530Li.

[The G Man]

Maybe some reading about Audi history is needed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi

I was in Germany, courtesy of the U.S. Army, not all that long after VW revived the Audi brand and before they launched the Audi brand in the U.S. in about 1973. Audi's and VW's share a huge number of parts from the bottom to the top of both lines and have many of the same quality problems. IMO, an Audi is just a VW pig with lipstick.

It would be cool if BMW sold the long wheel base Chinese market version of the 5-series in the U.S.? 5 1/2 more inches of rear seat legroom -- they probably wouldn't sell nearly as many 7-series here if they did that. Look at the attached photo of the backseat area of the 530Li.

So where in that link does it say Audi's and VW's share a huge number of parts from the bottom to the top of both lines?

Did you know that the Audi A6 long outsells the BMW 5 series long in China and worldwide?

Statements like "Audi is just a VW pig with lipstick" is same as other people' statement lik Lexus is nothing but a rebadge Toyota. All it really say the the person is how little they know about the car company. The fact is that Audi is much less like VW than Lexus is like Toyota.

[nc211]

You're really starting to irritate me.

[1990LS400]

So where in that link does it say Audi's and VW's share a huge number of parts from the bottom to the top of both lines?

It doesn't ... you can do your own comparison on part number websites or ask someone in the auto business you trust. Do you also think VW and Porsche are totally separate? If you do, check the ownership data. Porsches have always shared many parts with VW's including obvious parts like interior hardware and switches. The car sold in the U.S. as the Porsche 914 was sold in other countries as a VW. The Porsche 924 was originally going to be a VW until Porsche took it back and sold it under the Porsche brand.

Did you know that the Audi A6 long outsells the BMW 5 series long in China and worldwide?

What's your point? It might be helping that the Audi A6 is sold in China in a long wheelbase version known as the A6L which has even more rear seat legroom that the long wheelbase BMW 5-series. Massive rear seating area is "big" (is that a pun?) in China -- you'd think everyone was the height of Yao Ming. ;)

I've never thought the short wheelbase BMW 5-series were practical for a car used as a primary vehicle due to it's cramped rear seating. The far larger rear passenger area of the standard wheelbase Audi A6 is much more reasonable. The current short wheelbase 5-series has about the same pathetic rear legroom as the BMW 735 I considered just before I bought my first LS400 in 1990.

Statements like "Audi is just a VW pig with lipstick" is same as other people' statement lik Lexus is nothing but a rebadge Toyota. All it really say the the person is how little they know about the car company. The fact is that Audi is much less like VW than Lexus is like Toyota.

Well there have certainly been a lot of Audi's owned by a section of my family that I sometimes call the "loser branch". If the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. " then the family member that bought four Audis in a row with each having major transmission problems has to be completely loonie or maybe just not so bright. Even I once bought a VW -- the only worse car I've had was a Triumph Spitfire when I was a kid. Have you ever had a car start to collapse in the middle by 35,000 miles, had the seat vinyl fall apart within two years, or a manual transmission fail at about 50,000 miles? It all happened to my VW and what I mentioned was just the tip of the iceberg. Why do you think VW closed down its U.S. manufacturing plant and almost "did a Fiat" and withdraw from the U.S. market? Why do you think the model name of the Audi 100 was changed to the "5000" back to the "100" and then to the "A6"?

Do some research. See how many parts are shared between the top Toyota sedan, the Avalon, and the top Lexus Sedan, the LS460/600. Then compare how many parts are shared between the top VW sedan, the Phaeton, and the top Audi sedan, the A8. When you are done doing that, report back with your findings! <_< I'll wait here.

P.S. I sure don't mind Lexus being called glorified Toyotas -- I'm a TMC shareholder even. Heres a photo of the license plate frame I put on the LS I bought 20 year ago and have on my current LS.

[The G Man]

It doesn't ... you can do your own comparison on part number websites or ask someone in the auto business you trust. Do you also think VW and Porsche are totally separate? If you do, check the ownership data. Porsches have always shared many parts with VW's including obvious parts like interior hardware and switches. The car sold in the U.S. as the Porsche 914 was sold in other countries as a VW. The Porsche 924 was originally going to be a VW until Porsche took it back and sold it under the Porsche brand.

My god, just because two car share some switches doesnt mean they are the same car. The ES and the Camry are different cars and they share a lot more than some switches.

What's your point? It might be helping that the Audi A6 is sold in China in a long wheelbase version known as the A6L which has even more rear seat legroom that the long wheelbase BMW 5-series.

My point is the A6 is a better selling sedan, even though the A6 is just a VW as you stated.

Well there have certainly been a lot of Audi's owned by a section of my family that I sometimes call the "loser branch". If the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. " then the family member that bought four Audis in a row with each having major transmission problems has to be completely loonie or maybe just not so bright. Even I once bought a VW -- the only worse car I've had was a Triumph Spitfire when I was a kid. Have you ever had a car start to collapse in the middle by 35,000 miles, had the seat vinyl fall apart within two years, or a manual transmission fail at about 50,000 miles? It all happened to my VW and what I mentioned was just the tip of the iceberg. Why do you think VW closed down its U.S. manufacturing plant and almost "did a Fiat" and withdraw from the U.S. market? Why do you think the model name of the Audi 100 was changed to the "5000" back to the "100" and then to the "A6"?

P.S. I sure don't mind Lexus being called glorified Toyotas -- I'm a TMC shareholder even. Heres a photo of the license plate frame I put on the LS I bought 20 year ago and have on my current LS.

Stop living in the pass, I am talking about new Audi, not Audis from the 1990s. It is only insanity if you do the samething over and over again and expect different results, but in Audi's case, its not insanity since Audi as a company have changed and you are not doing the samething. Did you know Audi have the biggest gain in customer loyalty last year, a much bigger jump than Lexus and BMW. Your LS is a great car, I had a LS430 myself, but you must admit, the LS is as exciting to drive as a party in a senior citizen home.

[smooth1]

So NC211, how far down the road are you looking to make this happen maybe? Do you know what year and motor/trans combo you want yet? I drove a 328 the other day, and I was surprised how much pep it had. What about an older Z4? LOL! Just askin......I kinda like the wagon version of the Z4. Is this car going to fill other "needs" in the house?

[nc211]

We're not sure how far down the road we are on this yet. There is a Pink Elephant in the room in my career, which may have us heading to DC sooner rather than later, maybe. Plus, it's bonus season for my industry, and waiting to see what that number might be. There's no hurry on our end to pull the trigger yet. The reasoning is that the GS is facing the suspension bushing problems, which after 9 years here in pothole hell, isn't all that surprising to me. It's not awful, yet, but it's pretty loose, and clicking/poping up front when going in reverse....the lca's are going. Juicing it will make the whole car wiggle around...rear lca's and related are going. All in price for all the parts I'd need is north of $1,200. Given my advancing age and lack of time, I'd have depend on a mechanic to do the install work more. Tack on another $1,000 probably. I think i'd rather put that money towards something newer and fresher to me, that I've always wanted since I was a kid, a bimmer. If we decide we don't like it, well, that might be when the LS comes back into play.

We really like the 06-07 328 wagon. Don't know enough about the "packages" yet, but do know that I want the cold weather package. I like the feel of the nav unit equiped ones too, but think the whole i-drive setup would drive my wife nuts. We've got a basic multi-purpose remote for the TV/Cable Box, which drives her nuts already. So, an i-drive, might cost me my left one, if you know what I mean... From what i've read, the 2.8 engine is actually the 3.0 engine.

I remember when I drove a 02 530i when shopping for the replacement to my old LS, and was stunned at how fast that car would haul butt! It was super nice.

[1990LS400]

Stop living in the pass, I am talking about new Audi, not Audis from the 1990s. It is only insanity if you do the samething over and over again and expect different results, but in Audi's case, its not insanity since Audi as a company have changed and you are not doing the samething. Did you know Audi have the biggest gain in customer loyalty last year, a much bigger jump than Lexus and BMW. Your LS is a great car, I had a LS430 myself, but you must admit, the LS is as exciting to drive as a party in a senior citizen home.

Do you happen to have access to reliability ratings for recent model years such as those from Consumer Union? If you look at them as I just did, you will find that Audi comes up far short of all Japanese manufacturers in reliability and that VW does even worse.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the way both older and current Audi's and BMWs drive and handle. I'd love to buy an Audi but all of them have reliability that is substantially below my minimum standards -- and, yes, I have very high standards. I especially like the Audi A6 wagon but I could never buy one. I've already been completely screwed by VW with a car that was undrivable when only two years old and which they couldn't fix -- the VW zone representative actually told me to "f#ck off" and that VW realized they were going to alienate a lot of customers. Watching my business assoicate "Dan" deal with endless problems with his wife's fairly new Audi A4 sure hasn't improved my opinion of Audi. I require a primary, "every day" vehicle to have rock solid reliability (e.g. like an appliance) -- that's why I no longer buy Mercedes and Volvos -- they have declined to a level below what I am willing to tolerate. If others have lower standards that me, then fine -- let them buy what they want. It's sort of a Darwinian excercise afterall.

G Man, do some research and tell me about the parts shared between the Avalon and LS460/600 and between the VW Phaeton and Audi A8. Maybe you will be surprised?

[smooth1]

We're not sure how far down the road we are on this yet. There is a Pink Elephant in the room in my career, which may have us heading to DC sooner rather than later, maybe. Plus, it's bonus season for my industry, and waiting to see what that number might be. There's no hurry on our end to pull the trigger yet. The reasoning is that the GS is facing the suspension bushing problems, which after 9 years here in pothole hell, isn't all that surprising to me. It's not awful, yet, but it's pretty loose, and clicking/poping up front when going in reverse....the lca's are going. Juicing it will make the whole car wiggle around...rear lca's and related are going. All in price for all the parts I'd need is north of $1,200. Given my advancing age and lack of time, I'd have depend on a mechanic to do the install work more. Tack on another $1,000 probably. I think i'd rather put that money towards something newer and fresher to me, that I've always wanted since I was a kid, a bimmer. If we decide we don't like it, well, that might be when the LS comes back into play.

We really like the 06-07 328 wagon. Don't know enough about the "packages" yet, but do know that I want the cold weather package. I like the feel of the nav unit equiped ones too, but think the whole i-drive setup would drive my wife nuts. We've got a basic multi-purpose remote for the TV/Cable Box, which drives her nuts already. So, an i-drive, might cost me my left one, if you know what I mean... From what i've read, the 2.8 engine is actually the 3.0 engine.

I remember when I drove a 02 530i when shopping for the replacement to my old LS, and was stunned at how fast that car would haul butt! It was super nice.

I don't think they made the wagon version in 06. I could be wrong. But I did a quick search for ya, and man, I think I would take a road trip for this one:

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u...mp;rdpage=thumb

They didn't make alot of em with the pano roof. Nice color, non smoker, low miles, this is the right package. If it checks out, ( only slight bumper damaged and repaint on the bumper only.)

[smooth1]

You'd have to drive to bayou country for this one, but it's more typical of what I see.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u...mp;rdpage=thumb

I went to the auto auctions last week again for the first time in about 3 or 4 months, and I would say the best window for buying is going to be within the next 3 or 4 months before prices starts going back up on certian car makers. It won't be to long before the market reaction to the Japanese automakers woes start to show up in demand for European cars and trucks. American mfgrs are going to get a nice sales bump out of this as well, but I think they'll see alot fewer cross buyers then say BMW, MB, and Audi. as now Hyundai, will be the big benificary of that market.

[The G Man]

Do you happen to have access to reliability ratings for recent model years such as those from Consumer Union? If you look at them as I just did, you will find that Audi comes up far short of all Japanese manufacturers in reliability and that VW does even worse.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the way both older and current Audi's and BMWs drive and handle. I'd love to buy an Audi but all of them have reliability that is substantially below my minimum standards -- and, yes, I have very high standards. I especially like the Audi A6 wagon but I could never buy one. I've already been completely screwed by VW with a car that was undrivable when only two years old and which they couldn't fix -- the VW zone representative actually told me to "f#ck off" and that VW realized they were going to alienate a lot of customers. Watching my business assoicate "Dan" deal with endless problems with his wife's fairly new Audi A4 sure hasn't improved my opinion of Audi. I require a primary, "every day" vehicle to have rock solid reliability (e.g. like an appliance) -- that's why I no longer buy Mercedes and Volvos -- they have declined to a level below what I am willing to tolerate. If others have lower standards that me, then fine -- let them buy what they want. It's sort of a Darwinian excercise afterall.

G Man, do some research and tell me about the parts shared between the Avalon and LS460/600 and between the VW Phaeton and Audi A8. Maybe you will be surprised?

Here is a link to the J D Power 3 year relaibilty rating, these are 2006 cars rated after 3 years of ownership at 2009:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/03/19/453867.html

As you can see, Audi is above averge and its no longer the unreliable car that it once was. In fact, European cars have made the most improvment in this decade.

As I have stated before, if reliability is your top priority, then pretty much all European cars are out and it would only leave you with a hand full of brands to choice from, thats not the way I want to pick a car. There are plenty of people who drive a European car as a daily driver and have no problem.

I have never been a big fan of VW, I am convience that the Germans havent figure out how to make a quality car for a low price yet, unlike the Japanese and the Koreans, but I hear the newer VW have improve quite a bit quality wise.

I dont see how you can compare the Phaeton, which only sold in the thousands with the high volume Avalon, which have sold hundreds of thousands in pass years. Yes, both the A8 W12 and the Phaeton shares the same engine, but both are limited production cars. On the other hand, the Toyota/Lexus 3.5L engine is share by tens of millions of Toyota and Lexus.

I can see why you are so loyal to the Lexus, the LS400 you own is consider by many the best car Lexus ever built, It put them on the map.

[SW03ES]

You're really starting to irritate me.

I have to agree.

G Man, your opinions are fine and you are entitled to them, but you have to be respectful of the opinions of others. Denigrating people's viewpoints such as saying things like "Some people like that ugly 5 series, most of them are bargain basement leasers" when others obviously have a differing viewpoint isn't fair.

[The G Man]

You're really starting to irritate me.

I have to agree.

G Man, your opinions are fine and you are entitled to them, but you have to be respectful of the opinions of others. Denigrating people's viewpoints such as saying things like "Some people like that ugly 5 series, most of them are bargain basement leasers" when others obviously have a differing viewpoint isn't fair.

[SW03ES]

I assume you removed your post above and sent it to me...thats not neccisary. Everything can be out in the open here, I'll post your PM and respond to it here...

So why do you side with NC211?

I am posting links with facts and he is attacking me calling me irritating. Shouldnt you have a talk with him regarding personal attacks and calling other members names?

I do respect their opinion and they should respect mine. I wasnt attacking anybody, saying things like "Some people like that ugly 5 series, most of them are bargain basement leasers" are just are opinion. If they dont like my opinion, they dont need to response or read my post. They get irritated because they have lost the debate or they are shock that some people might not see their viewpoint. Opinions are just that, its an opinion, if they dont like my opinion, they should still respect it just like I do theirs. On the other hand, facts are facts and there is not up for debate. Some people just dont like to hear the facts and get confuse with facts and opinions.

I agreed with nc211 that you were becoming irritating. Saying that someone is starting to become irritating is hardly an attack, it is a very respectful and permissive comment about the way someone's behavior is effecting you. He didn't call you a name...he said you were irritating him.

"You are irritating me" is not a personal attack. We're all adults here...if you can't handle that then this forum stuff isn't for you.

The issue is not your opinion, its your insistance that you beat those that disagree with you over the head with it while denigrating them as having no taste and being wrong because they don't agree with your viewpoint. Something being "ugly" is not a fact...it is an opinion. Your statement that "everyone" thinks the 5 series is ugly is a gross generalization...one that isn't true but thats beside the point. "I don't personally care for the 5 series, I think its ugly" is a respectfully stated opinion. "The 5 series is ugly and everyone knows it, the only people who drive them do so because they are cheap" is a denigrating and insulting statement and is not appropriate.

This is a friendly, community based forum here and tone is very important. Think about that before you word your opinions is all I'm saying.

And if you want to have a debate about facts with me...come armed.

[The G Man]

"You are irritating me" is not a personal attack. We're all adults here...if you can't handle that then this forum stuff isn't for you.

"The 5 series is ugly and everyone knows it, the only people who drive them do so because they are cheap"

Where I come from, calling someone irritating is a personal attack, as a mod, you should know that.

Please show where is my quote that you posted. You cannot because it doesn’t exist. Please do not twist my words around to make me look bad. If you are going to quote someone, use the exact words, you shouldn’t change my words around to you support your argument.

With that said, I am not going to post anymore about this personal attack incident, I am try to preserves a sense of community here, not establishing one group against another.

Have a good day :)

[The G Man]

Repeat post

[1990LS400]

G Man, I think it's OK to disagree -- especially in the Club Lounge area where there is often more B.S. than on a cattle ranch.

I don't know if I could be called a "fan" of either Lexus or Toyota. I'll abandon both in a heartbeat if they stop fulfulling my needs or their quality slips just like I abandoned Volvo and Mercedes after owning three of each. Brand loyalty doesn't mean much to me. I'm a scientist and I can not not make rational choices.

The biggest problem with both Audi and BMW is that, while their reliability has risen to be acceptable during the first three or four years, their reliably has been documented to get progressively far worse than cars from many other manufacturers as they age further. I don't think a friend's BMW 740iL was more than five or six years old when its heater core sprung a leak -- he dumped the car rather than pay for the diassembly of the dash to replace the core. I wish his was an exceptional experience but it doesn't seem to be.

I love the way all the Audis and BMWs I've driven handle. Driving a BMW 5-series at Kansas City International Raceway in the BMW Challenge was the most fun I've ever had in a car -- except maybe for some teenage backseat experiences I won't discuss. :D

I truly hope the reliability of both Audi and BMW improves to the point where I'm willing to buy one. I'm a big fan of what people used to call "station wagons" and it sure doesn't look like Toyota is going to sell wagons in the U.S.

You're absolutely right -- a Lexus LS of any model year could hardly be called "fun" to drive. Two weeks ago, I drove a rental Toyota Camry LE 4-cylinder sedan on California Highway 1 -- the famous coastal 2-lane road with a hairpin curve every few hundred yards -- the 100+ miles between Monterey and Cambria. I didn't try to keep up the supper exotic cars (Maserati, Ferrari) or the lessor ones (Porsche Carrera-4) that passed me but I have to say that the Camry was actually sort of fun to drive on that road. My LS on Highway 1 would have been scary and not fun at all.

Speaking of Monterey, the coolest car I saw on the road near there was a BMW 2002 from about 1971-73 that looked like it had just rolled off the showroom floor. A car like that would have been completely eaten by salt here in the snow belt.

[The G Man]

1990LS400

I absolutely think it’s ok to disagree and voice opinions on a forum like this, otherwise, if everyone agree and everyone have the same opinion, it would be rather boring.

I have no brand loyalty myself, I like to ride the up-cycle of any given car company. My car buying practice is quite different from yours, I like to replace my car every few years, so reliability after 5 years is not a big concern of mine. I do agree with you that Japanese cars tend to be more reliable than the European cars after 5 years, but even that might be changing with Japanese cars getting more and more technologically advance and repair and parts cost going up.

A friend of mine has a new Camry V6 sport edition at work, I was very surprised at how well that car handles.