Rotated My Tires....

[RX400h]

Well, I decided to rotate the Bridgestones today and took a few shots of the brake/suspension areas. Untill I get either a cordless impact driver or the Sears Professional compressor with air impact wrench, I may not do this again - too much effort to save $20!

Anyway, I thought I'd show you what lurks behind the tires/wheels - very impressive engineering...

[GDixon]

Well, I decided to rotate the Bridgestones today and took a few shots of the brake/suspension areas. Untill I get either a cordless impact driver or the Sears Professional compressor with air impact wrench, I may not do this again - too much effort to save $20!

Anyway, I thought I'd show you what lurks behind the tires/wheels - very impressive engineering...

This must be your 400h but the "regenerative" brakes or the connections don't seem to be apparent in the pics.

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

Don't bother with cordless impact wrenches. Their specifics are mostly listed in inch-pounds rather than foot-pounds because they are so weak. Sears and Bosch have one that develops only 60 f-p. That wouldn't even start to budge a wheel lug.

If you buy a compressor, make sure it makes 150 psi to give you an added boost. (Costco has one for $160.) And buy a quality impact wrench. $300 - $400 is not to much to spend. That's about 25 tire rotations at $20 per or 125K miles. Only you can decide if it is worth it and whether you would have another use for the wrench and/or compressor.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Well, I decided to rotate the Bridgestones today and took a few shots of the brake/suspension areas. Untill I get either a cordless impact driver or the Sears Professional compressor with air impact wrench, I may not do this again - too much effort to save $20!

Anyway, I thought I'd show you what lurks behind the tires/wheels - very impressive engineering...

This must be your 400h but the "regenerative" brakes or the connections don't seem to be apparent in the pics.

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

Don't bother with cordless impact wrenches. Their specifics are mostly listed in inch-pounds rather than foot-pounds because they are so weak. Sears and Bosch have one that develops only 60 f-p. That wouldn't even start to budge a wheel lug.

If you buy a compressor, make sure it makes 150 psi to give you an added boost. (Costco has one for $160.) And buy a quality impact wrench. $300 - $400 is not to much to spend. That's about 25 tire rotations at $20 per or 125K miles. Only you can decide if it is worth it and whether you would have another use for the wrench and/or compressor.

Actually, you DO NOT EVER want to jack-hammer your studs with 150 psi. That sometimes, will pull the threads off a stud, and the dealer will charge you appx $75 dollers to extract a potential broken stud, because over torquing studs voids the warranty that normally applies to the brake / wheel / hub componets. Taking them off, too. can easily be done at 90psi. ... even if they're on tight. Then, use a torque wrench to put them on with the correct torque. I like to use a nice soft loctite formula to give a little extra security to the tightness of the studs. The manual doesn't require it, and it's an extra expense, but what the heck, it allows you to drop the torque by 10% (lubrication effect) and still end up with a more secure fastener.

(Another) Actually, regarding brakes, "regenerative" brakes are not special equipment built into the disks, or hubs, or spindles, rather simply a term of art. Regenerative braking is actually an electric function of the HSD ... so that a regenerative effect is applied from the generater / electric motor, that is transferred to the tires, in a braking effect. THAT is the reason the disks look normal ... because they ARE normal. There is no reverse/generator type thingie added onto the disks.

[wwest]

Well, I decided to rotate the Bridgestones today and took a few shots of the brake/suspension areas. Untill I get either a cordless impact driver or the Sears Professional compressor with air impact wrench, I may not do this again - too much effort to save $20!

Anyway, I thought I'd show you what lurks behind the tires/wheels - very impressive engineering...

This must be your 400h but the "regenerative" brakes or the connections don't seem to be apparent in the pics.

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

Don't bother with cordless impact wrenches. Their specifics are mostly listed in inch-pounds rather than foot-pounds because they are so weak. Sears and Bosch have one that develops only 60 f-p. That wouldn't even start to budge a wheel lug.

If you buy a compressor, make sure it makes 150 psi to give you an added boost. (Costco has one for $160.) And buy a quality impact wrench. $300 - $400 is not to much to spend. That's about 25 tire rotations at $20 per or 125K miles. Only you can decide if it is worth it and whether you would have another use for the wrench and/or compressor.

Actually, you DO NOT EVER want to jack-hammer your studs with 150 psi. That sometimes, will pull the threads off a stud, and the dealer will charge you appx $75 dollers to extract a potential broken stud, because over torquing studs voids the warranty that normally applies to the brake / wheel / hub componets. Taking them off, too. can easily be done at 90psi. ... even if they're on tight. Then, use a torque wrench to put them on with the correct torque. I like to use a nice soft loctite formula to give a little extra security to the tightness of the studs. The manual doesn't require it, and it's an extra expense, but what the heck, it allows you to drop the torque by 10% (lubrication effect) and still end up with a more secure fastener.

(Another) Actually, regarding brakes, "regenerative" brakes are not special equipment built into the disks, or hubs, or spindles, rather simply a term of art. Regenerative braking is actually an electric function of the HSD ... so that a regenerative effect is applied from the generater / electric motor, that is transferred to the tires, in a braking effect. THAT is the reason the disks look normal ... because they ARE normal. There is no reverse/generator type thingie added onto the disks.

Yes, one of the german marques, BMW or MB, is now using "regenerative braking" on an otherwise RWD standard car. They are using a heavier duty 12 volt battery than usual/normal and only allowing the voltage regulator to charge the battery during coastdown or during actual brake application. And like the actual hybrids, only use the "ICE" if the battery gets discharged to much.

Discount Tire uses a low torque impact wrench to remove and re-install lug nuts. Then a torque wrench is used to do the final tightening of the lug nuts to exact specification.

[RX400h]

GDixon,

I did look at the latest crop of lithium Ion impact wrenches and you're right - they are very weak, even when compared to the older NiMH impact wrenches. The advantage of Lithium Ion is that they can retain their charge for many months. Still, they are not ready for prime time.

Regarding a compressor, Sears' Professional upright (175 psi max) is the quietest compressor I've ever heard in that price range. At $390 (sale price) it is $90 more than the Home Depot brand and the DeWalt upright, but the Sears unit is much quieter, so quiet you can have a conversation while standing very close. It's minor weak point is its flow at 5.2 CFM @ 90 psi. Many air impact drivers require higher flow rates, but there are some 1/2-inch and 3/8-inch wrenches that require only 4.1 or so CFM.

Also, I do have another use for the compressor (besides inflating tires and blowing machined stuff off) and tht is minimizing bubbles in cast parts.

Someone Else,

Yes, I would use the impact wrench to remove only. Our manual contains NO mention of torque. Rather, they recommend that you use the lug nut wrench (fairly short lever arm), so that's what I used. The breaking torque to loosen the nuts was fairly low. I estimate no more than 80 lbs-ft. Some shops have impact wrench sockets that have very thin "necks", designed to limit the torque exerted on the lug nut. In our case, it's best to use a torque wrench to tighten the nuts.

BTW, That'll work with loctite as long as you are diligent in reducing the applied torque.

WWest - By the way, my owners manual has a section on the correct use of snow chains. I was somewhat surprised to see this, given the very small clearance our tires have.

Dave

[GDixon]

I always hand torque lug nuts to the recommended torque values. The extra psi in a 150 psi compressor is nice for the possible "boost" that was mentioned for tough removals. It could always be regulated to 90 psi with a regulator but the 120 psi compressors just don't seem to have the blast of power required. I have a dual stage 175 psi compressor as well but regulate it for use on autos. The extra psi is on used on farm equipment and disks. If a cheap impact wrench is used then the additional psi is necessary to get it up to speed.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Someone Else,

Yes, I would use the impact wrench to remove only. Our manual contains NO mention of torque. Rather, they recommend that you use the lug nut wrench (fairly short lever arm), so that's what I used. The breaking torque to loosen the nuts was fairly low. I estimate no more than 80 lbs-ft. Some shops have impact wrench sockets that have very thin "necks", designed to limit the torque exerted on the lug nut. In our case, it's best to use a torque wrench to tighten the nuts.

BTW, That'll work with loctite as long as you are diligent in reducing the applied torque.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I'd say your 80lb guess was darn close :) There are several folks on this Lexus forum and the 'other' Lexus forum, that have dedicated time to talkin' lug torque. Also, there are tons of lug nut charts on the web that folks can draw from. None in the Manual? Makes sense. Most shade tree mechanichs will only use the lug wrench which is too short for most to over-do it. For me, I have torque charts (home and at work), and a rockwell hardness tester. Torque (another way to ultimately compute a clamp load) is a component of how coarse / fine the threads are, how lubricated the threads are (and plated threads counts as lube) thread diameter, bolt hardness, and number of fasteners performing the clamp load.

Metric hardness terminology differs from U.S. / SAE hardness scales / charts (is everybody asleep yet? :P ) ... but my rockwell tester shows our 400h studs are just a teeny bit softer than an SAE grade '8' bolt (which is pretty hard). Baseing hardness, number of threads per MM, & number of lugs on the 400h, I came up with 55.3 newton meters of torque, which works out to just under 75lbs. That's a nice, safe secure # for the 400h ... not too loose, and no danger of streaching the threads. (Then, like I said, I dropped 10% personally, to allow for the extra lube effect of the loctite type 222 which is way more easily removable than even type 242). Lastly, it's good to use a "Star" - "Criss-Cross" manner while torquing a little more, on each lug, to assure even distribution of your clamp load.

Who knew lugs could get so much consideration! :D

[RX400h]

I hear you! (and remember much of that stuff from my machine design class in 78.) I'll bet that if we ask our friendly neighborhood Lexus service manager, he'll tell us what the factory specification is. I usually obtain what I need from the factory service manual, but in this case, all I have is the owner's manual. Of course, if I have to, I can always crack open that machine design book and look up the K factors.

I'll have to say this, not many people have Rockwell hardness testers in their garages. By the way, I too have Loctite 222 and 242 (as well as 425 for plastics) at home. They come in handy sometimes.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

whoops, sorry gdixon, overlooked your jack points question. Yes, the manual calls out where the jacking points are. The scissors jack is kind of chincy, so use caution. Some have complained that it's easily put in danger of caving in, especially on unlevel ground. This topic too, has been beat to death :P

So here's a link with pictures (the search tool is a wonderful thing), in case you find it hard to locate the little indents where the jack goes:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ost&id=8290

[wwest]

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

whoops, sorry gdixon, overlooked your jack points question. Yes, the manual calls out where the jacking points are. The scissors jack is kind of chincy, so use caution. Some have complained that it's easily put in danger of caving in, especially on unlevel ground. This topic too, has been beat to death :P

So here's a link with pictures (the search tool is a wonderful thing), in case you find it hard to locate the little indents where the jack goes:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ost&id=8290

I almost always use a floor jack and so those little jacking point "indents" become sort of PITA. So I place a small pice of 2X4 on my jack face before raising the RX.

And here I always thought that tensile strenght was what designated, determined, what level of torque to apply, the ability to stretch the bolt just enough.....

I ALWAYS torque standard passenger vehicle lug nuts to 105 ft/lbs in two stages.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

. . . . snip

And here I always thought that tensile strenght was what designated, determined, what level of torque to apply, the ability to stretch the bolt just enough.....

I ALWAYS torque standard passenger vehicle lug nuts to 105 ft/lbs in two stages.

I've enjoyed several informative reads left by wwest, so maybe this is an april fools? :D

Suggesting that because one of our local tire joints (using a rattle gun) jacked our Prius (a mid sized passenger vehicle) lugs to 100. It cost them a bit to replace the 2 damaged lugs ... one w/ streached threads, and the other simply metal fatigued/broke. Here's an older toque chart off the web as one of many examples:

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoWheelTorque.dos#lexus

Not to say studs will always be damaged . . . 5 or 10lbs +/- won't break the bank . . . but higher? More likely, and it's only weakening the threads, not making the tire any more secure.

. . . and yep . . . bolt/lug hardness/tensile strength is ONE determining factor of proper torque. But the others listed above are just as important factors. So come on now . . . I know you know that . . . April fools, right? :P

[wwest]

. . . . snip

And here I always thought that tensile strenght was what designated, determined, what level of torque to apply, the ability to stretch the bolt just enough.....

I ALWAYS torque standard passenger vehicle lug nuts to 105 ft/lbs in two stages.

I've enjoyed several informative reads left by wwest, so maybe this is an april fools? :D

Suggesting that because one of our local tire joints (using a rattle gun) jacked our Prius (a mid sized passenger vehicle) lugs to 100. It cost them a bit to replace the 2 damaged lugs ... one w/ streached threads, and the other simply metal fatigued/broke. Here's an older toque chart off the web as one of many examples:

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoWheelTorque.dos#lexus

Not to say studs will always be damaged . . . 5 or 10lbs +/- won't break the bank . . . but higher? More likely, and it's only weakening the threads, not making the tire any more secure.

. . . and yep . . . bolt/lug hardness/tensile strength is ONE determining factor of proper torque. But the others listed above are just as important factors. So come on now . . . I know you know that . . . April fools, right? :P

No, sorry.

It seems like forever that I have used a torque wrench to do the final tightening of the lug nuts on my cars and 105 ft/lbs has always been the majic number. I don't, today, have any idea what the origin of that number might be except to say that "knowing myself" it had to have come from a valid source at the time.

I'll go looking.

But in the meantime you, someone else, have said something that somewhat puzzles me.

You seemingly computed the required torque level from hardness (surface hardness??), thread/inch, and the number of lugs.

Pardon me, but surface hardness is no indication of tensile strength, and a greater number of threads/inch insofar as "torque" is concerned is not any different than simply using a longer torque wrench handle, and the number of lugs is of no consequence whatsoever as the object of torqueing the lug nuts is not only to fasten the wheel to the hub securely but also to secure each lug nut individually, prevent the lug nuts from backing off the thread.

More than willing to be proved wrong on any or all of the above points.

[wwest]

Wow....

Googled:

Lug nut torque

And saw recomendations varying from 60-105 ft/lbs

Then:

Lug nut torque "105 ft-lbs"

And found lots of recommendations, many for "respectable" sources, of 80 to 105 ft/lbs

Some had tables based on lug stud size but I didn't find one based on number of studs or threads/inch.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Yep, that's why I went to my super duper monkey gymnastics formula method to calc it out.

That said, the other Lexus forum has a member that says the super duper toyota / lexus service manual states 76lbs for the RX.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326287

so I wasn't too far off

wish he'd of posted a pdf, it'd be nice ... not that I'm doubting

Edit:

Whoops, Just noticed the comment about not finding differences for thread pitch. Actually, it's pretty commonly recognized how threads vary load. See this typical chart:

http://www.imperialinc.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf

Note how each bolt size shows different torque values turning on differnt numbers of threads per inch.

Fore example, a U.S. SAE 1" fastener has 3 common amounts of threads per inch . . . either 8, 12, or 14. The finer the threads, the greater the torque that can safely be applied. Similarly note how much the clamp load increases . . . over TWO TONS OF ADDITIONAL CLAMP LOAD, on a single bolt, simply because the threads are finer. More threads per inch = more ability to deliver high clamp load. And as this chart shows, the same principals hold true for metric fasteners as well.

Lastly, regarding hardness, look at the hardness values of a 1" bolt at the bottom of the chart. Grade 5 versus grade 8. Again, more clamp load, and a higher torque is atainable, due to the harder characteristics of bolts. These are pretty elementary givens in the world of the machinist / aerospace world.

[RX400h]

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

whoops, sorry gdixon, overlooked your jack points question. Yes, the manual calls out where the jacking points are. The scissors jack is kind of chincy, so use caution. Some have complained that it's easily put in danger of caving in, especially on unlevel ground. This topic too, has been beat to death :P

So here's a link with pictures (the search tool is a wonderful thing), in case you find it hard to locate the little indents where the jack goes:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ost&id=8290

Since I use my large 2-ton hydrualic floor jack to raise my cars, I used the lift point near the center of the front of the RX. In fact, there is a sticker on the support member under which the jack saddle should be placed. I then placed jack stands under the cross beam. For jacking the rear, I used the convenient trailer hitch flat area, making sure that it did not defect any, since the rear bumper would've been pushed upward, had the hitch assembly moved in that direction. Once the front and rear are raised, rotating the tires is fairly easy.

BTW, I was at Westec in Los Angeles, today and Milwaukee had a monster lithium ion impact wrench, capable of more than 200 lbs-ft of torque. However, at $400+ (wrench, 2 batteries and a charger), it's not inexpensive.

[GDixon]

Are the jack points for a tire rotation clearly indicated under the car? If so, where are they? I'm going to rotate tires in the next few days but don't want to crumple any body panels.

whoops, sorry gdixon, overlooked your jack points question. Yes, the manual calls out where the jacking points are. The scissors jack is kind of chincy, so use caution. Some have complained that it's easily put in danger of caving in, especially on unlevel ground. This topic too, has been beat to death :P

So here's a link with pictures (the search tool is a wonderful thing), in case you find it hard to locate the little indents where the jack goes:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ost&id=8290

Since I use my large 2-ton hydrualic floor jack to raise my cars, I used the lift point near the center of the front of the RX. In fact, there is a sticker on the support member under which the jack saddle should be placed. I then placed jack stands under the cross beam. For jacking the rear, I used the convenient trailer hitch flat area, making sure that it did not defect any, since the rear bumper would've been pushed upward, had the hitch assembly moved in that direction. Once the front and rear are raised, rotating the tires is fairly easy.

BTW, I was at Westec in Los Angeles, today and Milwaukee had a monster lithium ion impact wrench, capable of more than 200 lbs-ft of torque. However, at $400+ (wrench, 2 batteries and a charger), it's not inexpensive.

Thanks for the information and the picture. The jack points are in the usual places. I would have done a search for "jack points" but since you had just rotated the tires and it was done on an RX the question was asked of someone with first-hand experience.

From your post it sounds like you use a 3-point jacking system - two in the front and one in the rear (for those of us who have a trailer hitch). That is also my preferred method.

I have a shop with a concrete floor and four hydraulic floor jacks (two are 3 1/2 ton) so should be able to work up a solution to tire rotation. Now I need to search for the pattern. Front to rear and cross the rears to the front has been what has been done in the past. Some people just go front to rear and vice versa with radials.

As far a lug nut torque, this thread (!) has pretty much exhausted the subject. I have used 90 ft-lb for alloys and 110 ft-lb for steel rims. Obviously, there is much more to the subject than that.

Check out this 28V Milwakee impact wrench with 325 ft-lbs of torque. It retails at $865 but can be had at Grainger for "only" $489. Maybe it is the one you saw at Westec.

http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=729964

[RX400h]

That's it! It IS a monster, both in size and power (....not to mention weight.) The manual shows that the spare is included in the rotation pattern, but now that my spare doesn't match the Bridgestones, I rotate front to back with no criss-crossing. Essentially, that's what the book shows if you remove the spare from the picture.

Dave

[Fenton House]

That's it! It IS a monster, both in size and power (....not to mention weight.) The manual shows that the spare is included in the rotation pattern, but now that my spare doesn't match the Bridgestones, I rotate front to back with no criss-crossing. Essentially, that's what the book shows if you remove the spare from the picture.

Dave

Hi//

Did an oil change and rotation today. Had access to a hydraulic lift so it wasn't to bad. The car has 10k on it. Found out that the dealer didn't bother to rotate the spare at 5k. I did and will continue to do so. Used a torque wrench to loosen and tighten the lug nuts -- was really no hassle at all. Manual recommends 76 ft-lbs. Used that.

Bob

[RX400h]

Ah, now a lift makes things much easier. Of course, if it were up to me, I'd have a lift in my garage.......

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[wwest]

I'm not in the habit of rotating tires at all but were I to do so I wouldn't include the spare in the mix.

Too many times over the years it's been rather nice to have an unused spare to mount with ONE new tire that I had to purchase due to tire failure, a "single" tire failure.

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[wwest]

I'm not in the habit of rotating tires at all but were I to do so I wouldn't include the spare in the mix.

Too many times over the years it's been rather nice to have an unused spare to mount with ONE new tire that I had to purchase due to tire failure, a "single" tire failure.

Many vehicles today don't come with a spare tire as the same size as what's on the 4 wheels.

Then putting the spare into the rotation "cycle" isn't an option to begin with....

But, I've used a spare as the 4th tire in a new tire purchase when the spare is the same thing I'm purchasing so it matched the other three tires.

...