Toluene... Anyone Tried It?

[4.0 LS TECH]

I searched the forum and found some posts awhile back about it, but no one actually said if they really tried it, and if they did, what were the results.

I kinda looked it up a bit and figure since its $3 a gal its cheaper than gas, and has a higher octane rating. but it is a poor form of fuel in cold weather.

but assuming my tank in my 91 ls400 is a 22.5 gal tank. and every 10% toluene mixture is 2.2 RON. this is way cheaper than the octane booster at the parts store and more than 2x effective. every 2.5 gal in my tank would be 2.2 octane points.

91octane gas with 15gal of toluene in the tank=60% mixture and comes out to 104.2 octane. F1 cars run on 102 octane.

So ? Is... Is this a bad idea... what do you all think.

[jbarhorst2]

I think it is a bad idea.

The seals, o-orings, etc. were designed to work with gasoline, not toluene.

I suspect you may cause some issues.

If there were no rubber or sealer components that it would touch, it may work theoretically. But I would not put it in my cars.

Tom

[4.0 LS TECH]

Well i looked at the Shell gas companys site, and they had a page that said it was the main ingredient in their gas to produce octane. so its already in gas.

Just not in such high quantites. and then, if you added a quart of ATF+4. that would take care of the lubrication additives in gas.

I guess Ill just try it, and ill post the results. Ive got 3 extra 1uz's laying around anyway. If it blows up, itll motivate me to build a better motor.

[Harky]

104 octane...so what.

You won't get any benefit from it in a stock motor.

Are you planning engine mods to increase compression? Like maybe 11:1 or 12:1...then octane boost might help.

[aarman4]

In the 1uzfe engine in it's stock mode 91 octane is plenty good enough, you will get nothing more from your gasoline by boosting beyond that. I looked into trying out the toluene/atf mix before to boost from 87 to 91(I am VERY rural, 87 or dieel only in my parts), but I found a place I could get 91 that I know I will stop at least every tank of fuel, so I am not willing to do the extra work and cleanup of mixing, carrying, purchasing and what not of the mix for my own personal octane boosting.

[4.0 LS TECH]

I would imagine it would help the engine run a bit smoother, especially on a specific 3 mile long up hill section where there is pinging coming from the engine. I found a tsb for the issue while at work that says it is normal on uphill sections, however it says to make sure the custumer is using the correct octane fuel. 91 is best in my town, but owners manual says to use 93 or 95, cant remember which. But i believe when the engineers who designed the 1uz give me a tsb about using i high enough octane level.. then might a even higher one result in some greater good.

either way, itll be somthing to try out for fun, till i finish getting everything i need for my TT setup.

[aarman4]

I would be more suspect about the quality of the gas you are using first. The Candian Owners manual (I am sure it is the same as the American, although we get headlight washers :P) says 91 octane.

The octane number is the gasolines ability to resist pre-ignition due to compression. The compression ratios of your 1uzfe are designed so that 91 octane rated fuel will not produce preignition, whereas a lower value might. The fuel will simply mot ignite, pre-ignite, or ignite properly. 91 and higher will make it ignite properly, however 95 rated octane, or even 120 rated octane will do nothing more than 91 rated octane did to resist preignition...

My first check would be the quality of the gasoline you are buying, making sure you are happy with their fuel.(and believe me, I know of some places when I was a young gas jockey that would load premium up with 87 octane rating, small station, not a major one, but it's possible)

Go ahead and try a higher octane rating and jump to a 93 or 94, and see if that solves things.....also double check your owners manual again for that rating tecommendation.

[new2mud]

I searched the forum and found some posts awhile back about it, but no one actually said if they really tried it, and if they did, what were the results.

I kinda looked it up a bit and figure since its $3 a gal its cheaper than gas, and has a higher octane rating. but it is a poor form of fuel in cold weather.

but assuming my tank in my 91 ls400 is a 22.5 gal tank. and every 10% toluene mixture is 2.2 RON. this is way cheaper than the octane booster at the parts store and more than 2x effective. every 2.5 gal in my tank would be 2.2 octane points.

91octane gas with 15gal of toluene in the tank=60% mixture and comes out to 104.2 octane. F1 cars run on 102 octane.

So ? Is... Is this a bad idea... what do you all think.

Nevermind the naysayers who haven't actually done this. Toluene is proven, and effective. I have not had reason to use it in my LS, but I mix it up to 10% on a high-boost street motor on another car.

BTW, you're wrong--it's not 2x more effective than the off the shelf octane boosters--it is way more effective. I don't know how those products are able to get away with advertising the claimed octane boosts--most of them contain toluene, and in those small quantities found on the shelf, well....you do the math.

If you're concerned about seals and lubrication, a common trick is to add a bit of ATF to your toluene 'brew'.

[4.0 LS TECH]

Nevermind the naysayers who haven't actually done this. Toluene is proven, and effective. I have not had reason to use it in my LS, but I mix it up to 10% on a high-boost street motor on another car.

BTW, you're wrong--it's not 2x more effective than the off the shelf octane boosters--it is way more effective. I don't know how those products are able to get away with advertising the claimed octane boosts--most of them contain toluene, and in those small quantities found on the shelf, well....you do the math.

If you're concerned about seals and lubrication, a common trick is to add a bit of ATF to your toluene 'brew'.

Good to hear someone is using it. you must be running about 95-96 octane in the end right. how much ATF do you think should be added, mabe 1/8qt for a full tank of gas mixed with the toluene?

yeah, i know its alot more effective, off shelf boosters only raise in small points. like take 91 octane and add off shelf booster and you only end up with like 91.7 or somthing like that while the same amount of straight toluene can take it to 93 or 94. I was just being sort of lazy in the post.

[jbarhorst2]

I stand corrected.

Did a little more research on the components of gasoline. I did not realize the percentage of toluene in gasoline.

I originally thought it was only a very minor component.

Tom

[cardona6569]

In which store you can get Toluene very cheap or under what brand? I saw a gallon of the stuff for about 30.00 which I thought was too expensive.

CPR

[new2mud]

Good to hear someone is using it. you must be running about 95-96 octane in the end right. how much ATF do you think should be added, mabe 1/8qt for a full tank of gas mixed with the toluene?

yeah, i know its alot more effective, off shelf boosters only raise in small points. like take 91 octane and add off shelf booster and you only end up with like 91.7 or somthing like that while the same amount of straight toluene can take it to 93 or 94. I was just being sort of lazy in the post.

Almost--the same amount of straight toluene will only get you about as much gain as the OTS stuff (i.e. 2-3 points, or from 92 octane to 92.3 octane), since they use mostly toluene, but in much lower quantities than is effective. Remember: 10% toluene added to 92 octane will get you to 94.2, and 20% will get you to 96.4. (Toluene's RON octane rating is 121). But that's 2-4 gallons per tank. Keep in mind that you probably don't want to go much beyond 10% as that may get you outside the ASTN specs for gasoline.

As for extra lubrication, 2-3 oz of ATF per gallon of toluene should do it, but it's not always necessary.

[new2mud]

While this is a worthwhile discussion, why are you wanting to run toluene in your LS? 91 octane is just fine for the LS, especially if you're at altitude.

[new2mud]

In which store you can get Toluene very cheap or under what brand? I saw a gallon of the stuff for about 30.00 which I thought was too expensive.

CPR

Now that's the kicker. At $30/gallon, it gets steep quick! Some are able to find it at chemical supply houses for as cheap as $3/gallon in 5-gallon or larger drums.

[4.0 LS TECH]

The main reason for this is just an experiment, I mostly want to see what its going to do to a stock motor, if it does anything at all. Perhaps itll run smoother or blow up, you never know. But mostly its a time killer.

I heard you can get it at sherwin willams for 3 dollars a gallon, but it comes in 5 gal buckets.

[aarman4]

I have a better timekiller for you...........Take your 1uzfe and put it on a transport pallet and wrap it up nicely...Send me a shipping bill and I will send you my address in Manitoba ;)

J/J...

Nothing like some good old imperical testing though!

[eatingupblacktop]

Well i looked at the Shell gas companys site, and they had a page that said it was the main ingredient in their gas to produce octane. so its already in gas.

Just not in such high quantites. and then, if you added a quart of ATF+4. that would take care of the lubrication additives in gas.

I guess Ill just try it, and ill post the results. Ive got 3 extra 1uz's laying around anyway. If it blows up, itll motivate me to build a better motor.

As they say "if you're gonna blow it up, then blow it up reeel good". Listen 4.0, when you get to rebuilding it, take a couple of mill off the head to bump up the compression and see what happens with your new fuel mix. Nice to have a couple of extra 1uz's just hanging around. How do you find them anyway?

[4.0 LS TECH]

Well i looked at the Shell gas companys site, and they had a page that said it was the main ingredient in their gas to produce octane. so its already in gas.

Just not in such high quantites. and then, if you added a quart of ATF+4. that would take care of the lubrication additives in gas.

I guess Ill just try it, and ill post the results. Ive got 3 extra 1uz's laying around anyway. If it blows up, itll motivate me to build a better motor.

As they say "if you're gonna blow it up, then blow it up reeel good". Listen 4.0, when you get to rebuilding it, take a couple of mill off the head to bump up the compression and see what happens with your new fuel mix. Nice to have a couple of extra 1uz's just hanging around. How do you find them anyway?

I get them through my work. and i have connections at a local body shop.

ive got a 93 and 2 96 motors. im tearing down the 93 in my garage, and have the other 2 in storage along with multiple honda b series motors.

[eatingupblacktop]

Since you like to experiment, ever run avgas in anything?

[4.0 LS TECH]

my friend used to run it mixed in his rx7. said it did wonders. yet since then he has failed emissions. I think it is due to the lead in it. and since i refuse to put any lead in my ls, i myself have not tried it.

also on a side note, dont attempt to put the nitro fuel for the hobby rc cars into a gocart. itll just melt from the inside out.

[Leadfoot]

A PHD student I knew 10 years ago was developing a rotary engine that runs on hydrogen. That puppy was fun. Can't find any links to it now so he probably blew himself up!

[new2mud]

The main reason for this is just an experiment, I mostly want to see what its going to do to a stock motor, if it does anything at all. Perhaps itll run smoother or blow up, you never know. But mostly its a time killer.

You're not going to blow up the 1UZ by running 10% toluene in it. In fact, compared to 92 or 93 octane, you doubt you'll notice anything at all. The 1UZ fuel and timing maps are programmed to run for optimum power at 92-93 octane...it doesn't have a map to support advanced timing beyond that. If you could remap it to advance the timing, then you're talking some potential power gains.

If you've only got 91 octane in your area, and you add toluene to boost the octane in your tank, then you may notice some minor power improvements. It's the boosted engines that really benefit from the octane boosters.

Spend your time boosting the 1UZ, THEN add toluene and lets talk!