Just Drove An Ls460 And An Es350 Back To Back

[SW03ES]

Well as some of you know I had been planning on replacing my ES300 next month. Since the market hasn't been great through Q2 or Q3 this year I might wait until spring or summer 08...but thats beside the point.

Today I dropped it off for service and test drove an LS460 for the first time. I loved everything about it, beautiful beautiful car. I have extensive experience with the LS, but this was the first 460 I had driven.

My surprise came when I got into the ES350 loaner to go home. While I still dislike the 350's interior (the LS and my ES are much nicer IMHO), I was extremely surprised by how similarly it drove to the LS460. The LS is a little quieter, heavier, and the drivetrain is more refined but they were pretty darn close especially considering the $25k (at least) price difference.

I might really look at the ES again instead of stepping up to the LS this time...

[gabep]

I know this sounds silly but I had to take my ES 330 in for service and was given a ES 350 for a loaner. The 2005 ES 330 was much quieter and handled better than the 350. Just an opinion.

[ZeeD]

Great to see that the ES has the same drive feel to the LS, this fact only adds more value to the ES350.

When you guys say "was given an ES350 as a loaner", you mean as in you paid to rent the car and not they gave you the car for free of charge?

lol at the old ES having a better interior let alone better driving than the new one, but hey its oppinions.

[amf1932]

When you guys say "was given an ES350 as a loaner", you mean as in you paid to rent the car and not they gave you the car for free of charge?

Some Lexus dealers will give you a loaner car( usually a Lexus model), when your car is in for service. It's a free service! :)

[GMoney749]

While I still dislike the 350's interior (the LS and my ES are much nicer IMHO),

Interesting. Last time I was in for service I was given an ES 330 as a loaner and distinctly recall thinking that I would NEVER have bought an ES if it had that interior.

To each his own.

[ZeeD]

When you guys say "was given an ES350 as a loaner", you mean as in you paid to rent the car and not they gave you the car for free of charge?

Some Lexus dealers will give you a loaner car( usually a Lexus model), when your car is in for service. It's a free service! :)

Yea but i would think that would be for only new lexus car not some old ES300 :S

[gabep]

Free loaner. Kearney Mesa Lexus where we bought the car.

[SW03ES]

I know this sounds silly but I had to take my ES 330 in for service and was given a ES 350 for a loaner. The 2005 ES 330 was much quieter and handled better than the 350. Just an opinion.

The 350 you drove must have had something wrong with it or bad tires. Its not much moreso, but the 350 is definately quieter.

Interesting. Last time I was in for service I was given an ES 330 as a loaner and distinctly recall thinking that I would NEVER have bought an ES if it had that interior.

To each his own.

Its the wood, I really miss the wood in the previous model's interior. Its not just me, there are plenty of previous ES owners that feel the same way. Other cost cutting measures bug me too like going from triple stitching to double stitching on the leather, reduction in the amount of soft touch plastic, but the wood is what I miss.

On Tuesdays all us real estate brokers pile into cars and drive around touring houses and eating catered luncheons. I always drive so there's a group of four people that ride with me and know my car well. I had a 350 loaner a while back and we drove it on a Tuesday tour and there was not one positive remark about it. My manager got in the front seat and the first thing she said was "This isn't nearly as nice a car as yours..." and when I picked mine up later that day another guy said "I'm glad you have your car back, that car sucked". It was a mixture of things, one the changes in the interior embellishments and the fact that the back seat seems to be significantly narrower.

I love everything about the 350 except the interior...

You do also have to avoid making judgements about loaner cars. They're always filthy and beat up, I'm always less turned off by the interior of actual on the lot new ES350s.

[amf1932]

Its the wood, I really miss the wood in the previous model's interior.

I'll send you a tree. LOL

[amf1932]

Yea but i would think that would be for only new lexus car not some old ES300 :S

As long as the car is in a Lexus dealer service dept. it doesn't matter what year your car is. The loaner service is an added incentive to bring your car to them for service or repairs, but you have to set up an appointment for this work so they'll have a loaner available.

[gabep]

"You do also have to avoid making judgements about loaner cars. They're always filthy and beat up,"

I don't know what Lexus dealer you deal with but if their loaners are filthy and beat up I would change dealers. LOL!

[amf1932]

"You do also have to avoid making judgements about loaner cars. They're always filthy and beat up,"

I don't know what Lexus dealer you deal with but if their loaners are filthy and beat up I would change dealers. LOL!

I must be going to the right dealers, from NY to MN to CA, because everytime I got a loaner they were always washed and vacuumed. :)

[SW03ES]

Oh they're always washed and vacuumed, they just get abused by their customers.

Yea but i would think that would be for only new lexus car not some old ES300 :S

Thats part of what you pay for with Lexus' service. No matter how old your car is you will get a brand new Lexus loaner. My dealer has IS250s, ES350s, and RX350s and a couple RX400hs for hybrid customers. They've also had GS300s in the past, a couple of them.

If the dealer treated me differently (and I wouldn't call 4 years old "some old" car) because I didn't have a brand new car it wouldn't make me want to return would it? The dealer makes WAY more money off me than they do someone with a brand new car because my car needs more expensive maintenance and repairs.

I'll send you a tree. LOL

LOL! You can get those stick on wood kits...but its not the same.

I'll tell you, I got back in my car today and it still drives just as good as the new one despite having getting close to 100k miles. I still really enjoy driving it. Maybe I should just keep it...

[amf1932]

I'll tell you, I got back in my car today and it still drives just as good as the new one despite having getting close to 100k miles. I still really enjoy driving it. Maybe I should just keep it...

Back in the '80s I went to the New York Auto Show. There I met the owner of a Volvo that had over 1 million miles on the odometer. the car was on display(it looked beautiful!), and he told me that the Volvo Corporation was going to present him with a brand new Volvo so they could advertise the long term durability, using his car as an example. The owner did receive the new Volvo as agreed upon.

SW, maybe Lexus would also give you a new car free when your mileage approaches 1 million....if you have the time and wherewithal. heehee :)

[ZeeD]

Its the wood, I really miss the wood in the previous model's interior. Its not just me, there are plenty of previous ES owners that feel the same way. Other cost cutting measures bug me too like going from triple stitching to double stitching on the leather, reduction in the amount of soft touch plastic, but the wood is what I miss.

On Tuesdays all us real estate brokers pile into cars and drive around touring houses and eating catered luncheons. I always drive so there's a group of four people that ride with me and know my car well. I had a 350 loaner a while back and we drove it on a Tuesday tour and there was not one positive remark about it. My manager got in the front seat and the first thing she said was "This isn't nearly as nice a car as yours..." and when I picked mine up later that day another guy said "I'm glad you have your car back, that car sucked". It was a mixture of things, one the changes in the interior embellishments and the fact that the back seat seems to be significantly narrower.

I love everything about the 350 except the interior...

You do also have to avoid making judgements about loaner cars. They're always filthy and beat up, I'm always less turned off by the interior of actual on the lot new ES350s.

I have not been on this forum long enough to realise that you are like a broken record. I thank god that you are not part of the design team of the lexus, the way you talk about your car is just........ ohhhh ! We get it, you personally think your ES has a more luxorious interior than the new one, hell maybe even better than a bentely, but enough already!

Lexus compares the new ES350 to the old LS400 flagship and sights it as more LUXOURIOUS , powerfull and quiteter, they did not base the new ES350 on the old ES330 or ES300 !. Having allot of wood thrown in the car is old school, most german cars now a days no longer do that, design method changes, its not 1996 where one would say a car is luxorious cause it had wood all around the place. I mean seriously look at the 2007 Avalon it has more wood than a forest, but can you say it is more luxorious than the ES350.

[SW03ES]

I have not been on this forum long enough to realise that you are like a broken record. I thank god that you are not part of the design team of the lexus, the way you talk about your car is just........ ohhhh ! We get it, you personally think your ES has a more luxorious interior than the new one, hell maybe even better than a bentely, but enough already!

You know, Zee you have absolute right not to read my posts. I posted this thread to express my surprise by how closely the ES350 drives to the LS460. I am terribly sorry if my opinion about the interior bothers you, but you don't have to read it. I personally am frustrated with Lexus for the changes they made because I would like to trade up to a new ES to get all the new features. My "broken record" tirades are out of that frustration.

Lexus compares the new ES350 to the old LS400 flagship and sights it as more LUXOURIOUS , powerfull and quiteter, they did not base the new ES350 on the old ES330 or ES300 !. Having allot of wood thrown in the car is old school, most german cars now a days no longer do that, design method changes, its not 1996 where one would say a car is luxorious cause it had wood all around the place. I mean seriously look at the 2007 Avalon it has more wood than a forest, but can you say it is more luxorious than the ES350.

Actually the ES350 is of course based on the previous ES sedans. Its not an all new model. The LS has been the design teams target ever since the IS came out in 2001 and removed all need for the ES to appeal to people who like sporty cars.

Really? most german cars today don't have a lot of wood in the interior? So why do the S Class, 7 series, A8, all BMWs, all Mercedes all have interiors made with ample wood trim? The Benz CLS' dash is almost completely wood! Why did they add wood trim to the refresh of the BMW 5 series and the Benz E Class? Again, this is MY OPINION and I prefer a little more wood trim. You are absolutely welcome not to read my posts, and you are completely welcome to your opinions.

For the record the wood on the Avalon is plastic.

Anyways, I don't have much interest in german cars so why would I care what german carmakers are doing? Even if they were removing wood trim from cars which they aren't?

[GMoney749]

Its the wood, I really miss the wood in the previous model's interior. Its not just me, there are plenty of previous ES owners that feel the same way. Other cost cutting measures bug me too like going from triple stitching to double stitching on the leather, reduction in the amount of soft touch plastic, but the wood is what I miss.

See, I'm just the opposite. I could hardly even look at the instruments in the loaner because of that (IMO) tacky bit of wood above the steering wheel. It's overbearing and doesn't compliment the look, it just says "hey, there's a lot of wood in here so I must be classy". Wood should be an accent, not an interior motif in a car. Subtle, not garish. And the flat palstic all over center of the dash around the radio and AC has driven me out of Lexus showrooms for years.

Stitching? Who's looking at stitching? That's just a nit. If my seat doesn't fall apart why do I care how many stitches it has in it? Maybe they're using a better quality stitch so they don't need as much. Who knows.

But that's just me.

[SW03ES]

Absolutely, and thats completely your perogative.

The stitching though, while it may not be important to you, is a sign of quality construction. To me small little nuances like that are what appeals to me in a luxury car (being detail oriented). The ES has always had triple stitching in the leather, and now it doesn't alongside the RX. Even the IS has triple stitching in the leather. The way the doors close, the way the glove box is damped, the way the controls all respond in a certain way. Most people can't tell the difference between a $500 and a $1200 suit...but I can.

Its not just that, I can sit in the new car and make a list of all he areas they've reduced the quality of the materials used. Now, they also added a ton of features and content the previous car did not have without extremely iflating the price point, but it just bugs me. Thats what attracted me to my ES, because when you looked at the competiton at the same price point the quality advantages of the ES were immediately apparent, and now its not so much that way to me.

Its not that its not a great car, it is and its a huge improvement over the previous car in a lot of ways. I don't mean to sound like a "broken record" its just whenever I allude to that frustration it always turns into a discussion. Which I don't mind but it obviously bothers some people.

[GMoney749]

Its not that its not a great car, it is and its a huge improvement over the previous car in a lot of ways. I don't mean to sound like a "broken record" its just whenever I allude to that frustration it always turns into a discussion. Which I don't mind but it obviously bothers some people.

Sorry, didn't mean to de-value your opinion, everybody's got a right to like what they like.

[SW03ES]

Oh not at all, I never felt that you had devalued my opinion.

[Toysrme]

I got to poke around in a 350 today some... i completely agree. they've flip flopped. they went from that wierd former front end with a top notch interior feel. if they'd put the old interior of the ES/Camry's back with the new equipment, and keep the new exterior. they'd be hellaciously stylish!

sigh, maybe we'll see it at the 2.5y update! Q3 '08 baby! lol!

and yeah, the new ES/Avalon statistically is a better car than the old LS400's. IMHO Look way better (even in it's own time), has many more features, better powertrain, better economy, faster, handles & brakes better, 1 inch less head & shoulder room. (and the ES's have panoramic / moonroofs keep in mind!) To me here's the really amazing part. Lexus sold 41,901 LS400's in 1989 AND 1990 @ $58094.67 (2006 money) where-as they'll probably sell 80,000+ ES 350's @ $33,720. LESS money than the LS 400's were worth brand new originally! (base prices on both)

ES's, bloated camry's or not, are still the absolute best buy for the money in the Lexus line-up. The scareyest part... Is that if someone looks back over ES pricing VS inflation, every year they become much better buys...

[Toysrme]

not to sound as broke and in college as i actuall am, but it gets to the point where it's like jesus... why would someone spend $25,000+ to buy something that funcionally isn't really any better, will loose more in depreciation when the cheaper option sold 5 years ago would have been about the best car... ever....

you know to each his own, but eventually itll get rediculous.

like last night i walked by someone watching one of those money call in shows on CNN or whatever with the blonde chick. the guy was something like "i bring home 12k/m, i have a 150k morgage, another 30-40k 2nd morgage, a car payment on a 60-70k car. should i buy 23k worth of jet ski's". wtf!? dumbass take three years, pay your *BLEEP* off. lol!

oh and OMG bring the wood back. even if it's the seriously old mohagany they put in my old ES 300 where the acrylic is so thick you *think* it's fake but it's not. if i want fake wood ill spend $9.95 putting some that doesn't fit back in the F150... arg! 100% PERFECT for a camry/avalon, but keep that *BLEEP* out of the Lexus line. (except *maybe* the is250's cause they're all value based anyways...)

[lexuus]

Wow. After not being on this forum for months, coming back to find this thread left me astounded. Primarily, I would like to recount that the last time I read something on this forum it was SW commenting on the quality of his current ES and how the new ES doesn't match up. Point made SW (I think your point has been made in several other threads also).

Secondly, I want to comment on the fact that it seems like our favorite forum management member, SW, has changed his ways. Previously, when someone called him out on something or merely stated that his opinions are very "all about me (and how good my car is)-ish" he exploded with a lengthy, somewhat inaccurate dissertation about he how he always is and will be right. I found it very refreshing that when Zee called him a broken record he responded with an apology.

Thirdly, I want to fully agree with SW that cars seem more luxurious when they have a reasonable and modest amount of wood in them. I mean if you look at history, most cars (Japanese and German) over the past few years (04-06) have for the most part omitted wood from their interior designs. Of course they didn't fully omit wood, but it was considerably less abundant. Now in the year 2007, automakers have finally realized that wood in most cases is a good thing. Look at BMW's X3 for example, it had wood on the door handles and near the gear shifter in 04-06. Now it is all over the dash. The same goes for the facelifted 5. Look at the LS. All LS model years have had good amounts of wood, and perhaps that is the reason we find it to be such a high quality and fine automobile (from the inside). The fact of the matter is, luxury cars are known to have high quality wood inside them while sporty cars are known to have trims of carbon fiber or aluminum. So when you get in a car like the ES, you just feel like there should be a lot of wood in it.

[GMoney749]

Thirdly, I want to fully agree with SW that cars seem more luxurious when they have a reasonable and modest amount of wood in them. I mean if you look at history, most cars (Japanese and German) over the past few years (04-06) have for the most part omitted wood from their interior designs. Of course they didn't fully omit wood, but it was considerably less abundant. Now in the year 2007, automakers have finally realized that wood in most cases is a good thing. Look at BMW's X3 for example, it had wood on the door handles and near the gear shifter in 04-06. Now it is all over the dash. The same goes for the facelifted 5. Look at the LS. All LS model years have had good amounts of wood, and perhaps that is the reason we find it to be such a high quality and fine automobile (from the inside). The fact of the matter is, luxury cars are known to have high quality wood inside them while sporty cars are known to have trims of carbon fiber or aluminum. So when you get in a car like the ES, you just feel like there should be a lot of wood in it.

Yeah, well I know folks that think having gold teeth is pretty luxurious too. People do all kinds of gaudy/ugly things to show off their money.

More is not always better.

[shepsan]

Recently, when I have purchased a make of automobile for the first time, I check the internet forums devoted to that brand of vehicle. I do so in order to learn and benefit from the experience of those who own the same make and model.

In June of this year, I sold my 2006 Infiniti M45 and bought my first Lexus, the 2007 ES350. Compared to the M45, the ES350 is understated not only in power and performance but also in both exterior design and interior opulence. These characteristics suit me just fine. In fact, they are exactly what I want in a car. In other words, I wanted to move from the M45 tiger to a more sedate, safe, comfortable, luxurious and elegantly styled sedan. The 2007 Lexus ES350 completely meets my criteria.

To read the posts in the various Lexus internet forums, one would think that this particular Lexus model is a failure; it does not meet the luxurious standards of previous Lexus models, has serious mechanical defects and has a presence that pales in comparison to others in its class. IMO, this thinking is bunk and uninformed.

My automobile and truck ownership and driving experience began in the 1930’s. I have owned thirty-nine vehicles and have leased numerous others. I am an enthusiast and have been fortunate to earn the finances to buy new vehicles quite often. Among my choices have been some exceptional brands and models of cars. Many were modestly priced for the times while others were quite expensive. I began driving with cars equipped with mechanical brakes and had to be double clutched to move from gear to gear to have now progressed to driving today’s cars equipped with electronic magical GPS navigational devices and Bluetooth.

What I have learned through my experience is that like courses for horses, there are specific cars for individual people. All of this hooey about the so-called deficiencies that the ES350 displays is nonsense. The ES350 is what it is and for me at least, I find the car visually beautiful, elegantly appointed and the smoothest ride I have ever had in a car. Regarding its power, it is quick enough accelerating and cruising to make the MPG attained a thing to be envied by every other car on the road.

One last thing about wood in the enterior, coming from the M45 with its forest of wood directly in the line of sight to the classic look of the ES cockpit, I find the ES view much classier.

If the ES350 does not please or fit you, sell it and get something else. The choices are endless.