Ls460...is It Just Me?

[SuperCoupe400]

I decided to go yesterday and take a look at the LS460 in person at the dealer. Who, by the way, only had one showroom model. They can't keep those things in stock. I didn't examine it as closely as I would have liked. I was actually on my way somewhere else at the time. But just as the sales person pointed me to the LS (accross the room), something happened that only confirmed my previously unfounded supposition.

As he pointed out the LS460, there happened to have been an '07 ES right next to it. I couldn't beleive my freakin' eyes! I actually had to ask the guy, "Which one is the LS?". Had I been just some "Joe" off the street, I may have felt slightly embarassed asking such a question. But I in part asked it to make a point. These cars are just way too identical!

Yeah, yeah...I know their front grill and air dams are somewhat unique of one another. Yes, the overall massing of the cars differs. And their rear ends are rather different. But as I stood at the hoods of both these very fine automobiles (the ES maroon, the LS black), glancing quickly from LS to ES...ES to LS, I swear I could almost not tell the difference between them. The sculpted body lines of each mimic one another almost to a tee.

Maybe my pre-conceptions got the best of me. Perhaps my bias against this new design approach (one that is way to close to the Toyota line-up and also doesn't show enough distinction between Lexus models) had clouded my judgment and slanted my perception. I'll go back again - probably this weekend - and have a second, more in-depth look.

But from my initial observations, I am not at all happy with how Lexus has grafted, blended, morphed and otherwise dilluted it's brand image with the ES LS and IS. -_-

[nc211]

It isn't just you man... I feel the same way. But, I think some time is needed for the market place to digest all these changes Toyota has made in general for the LS to start to shine like it has in the past. It's one thing to change up a car or two, but they've changed up the entire sedan line, from the Camry, Avalon, ES, GS, IS and now LS. So much change in one year, I think it going to take some time for people to see past the menu, to notice the meal. But, as I believe now, unless I could really afford the luxury, I probably won't spend the extra money on the LS. I mean, when you drive a Toyota Solara or Avalon and notice it's completely silent, smooth and flawless, it's tough to imagine spending an extra $50k for the LS460. But, I'm a man on a budget.

[Rx330driver]

eh...i can see where your coming from but i can usually tell the difference.

the headlights are a big hint. the ES headlights are very sharp cornered

[greggebhardt]

It should make many happy if its hard to tell the difference. I bet they drive different. :o

[lexus411]

I bet it helps them sell alot more ES 350's . Pretty smart of them.

[SuperCoupe400]

It should make many happy if its hard to tell the difference. I bet they drive different. :o

Well, it'll make the ES and perhaps the IS drivers happy. Certainly the Avolon and Camry drivers. But the LS owners may not be so happy.

[SW03ES]

As he pointed out the LS460, there happened to have been an '07 ES right next to it. I couldn't beleive my freakin' eyes! I actually had to ask the guy, "Which one is the LS?". Had I been just some "Joe" off the street, I may have felt slightly embarassed asking such a question. But I in part asked it to make a point. These cars are just way too identical!

Its just you. The LS is MUCH larger than the ES, and looks it.

[lexuus]

i think hes referencing to not the size of the vehicles but the looks of the vehicles' front ends.

[SW03ES]

He's referring to mistaking one for the other, I think you'd have to have zero knowledge about Lexus vehicles to do so. I know people who think my ES is the top line Lexus model, and the 03 ES looks nothing like the 03 LS. People are going to mistake the LS for the ES and the ES for the LS, but to these people a Lexus is just a Lexus and it doesn't matter anyways.

[SuperCoupe400]

...I think you'd have to have zero knowledge about Lexus vehicles to do so... to these people a Lexus is just a Lexus...

You know, SW03ES, before I sauntered into that showroom I thought I knew something about Lexus myself. :( But, like I said, my pinned-up disgust with them for morphing so much of their lineup into Camry/Avolon mimics had really clowded my perception.

But I dare anyone to stand at the hoods between the two cars (ES & LS) lined up in a showroom and tell me there are not stark similarities. Not just small cues expected to be shared within a family of automobiles, but STARK similarities in the body lines and form factors.

I don't know man... :whistles: Kind of like telling a parent that their two twins look just alike. But they'll always adamantly deny it by trying to point out the differences between the two. Then after about 5 minutes of convincing and eye squinting, you start to see what they're talking about.

[SW03ES]

I think you're seeing what you want to see. Of course there are similarities, they're creating a BRAND IMAGE which is something Lexus has never had before. Stand at the hood of an S550 and of a new C class or E Class, there will be many similarities. Stand at the hood of a 7 series and look at a 3 series, same thing. If you're telling me you could not tell the difference between an LS and an ES though you're either lying or you really don't know anything about Lexus cars.

Anyways I doubt it matters since they can't even keep an LS on the lot and have waiting lists in many dealers (a first for the LS). I'd say public response has been strong.

[SuperCoupe400]

...If you're telling me you could not tell the difference between an LS and an ES though you're either lying or you really don't know anything about Lexus cars...

Now was that even necessary? C'mon man. Don't start calling people liars. No need to start a flame.

I guess I'm just opossed to any car maker squeezing the distinction out of a line-up for sake of brand image. Jag, Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, any of them. And, yeah you're right, I definately was quite likely seeing what I wanted to see...A "brand image" that still can't create it's own design cues. But is still borrowing heavily from its little brothers Camry and Avolon.

Agggh. Enough.

[blake918]

Yeah, yeah...I know their front grill and air dams are somewhat unique of one another. Yes, the overall massing of the cars differs. And their rear ends are rather different. But as I stood at the hoods of both these very fine automobiles (the ES maroon, the LS black), glancing quickly from LS to ES...ES to LS, I swear I could almost not tell the difference between them. The sculpted body lines of each mimic one another almost to a tee.

I agree! I find the easiest way to tell the ES and LS apart is the general body shape. The ES350 looks very puffed up/bloated looking while the LS is wider and has a better, smoother shape overall.

I think most of this thread is taken way too literally. Yes, I'm sure that most people can tell that the LS is the longer and wider car when parked next to the ES350. But, there are certainly a lot of similarities. I'm kind of mixed on the similar look for all of the Lexus cars. Part of me doesn't care, but the other part of me really likes that there used to be a unique LS, ES, GS, etc. before all of this L finesse styling came along.

[lexuus]

Stand at the hood of an S550 and of a new C class or E Class, there will be many similarities

A bit irrelevant on my part, I realize that, but the S550 is a new design style for Mercedes, much like L-finesse is for Lexus, therefore you aren't going to see as many styling similarities between a new S and a C or an E.

SW, I am almost sure you have seen a new ES & LS right next to each other, but if you haven't I believe your thoughts on similarities could be different from your current thoughts after seeing the two cars next to each other.

...If you're telling me you could not tell the difference between an LS and an ES though you're either lying or you really don't know anything about Lexus cars...

Also, I think this should be removed from your post by one of the mods, its inappropriate and can be offensive to supercoupe.

[1990LS400]

There is a darned good reason that the Mercedes S550's styling is a significant departure from the styling of its siblings.

When Mercedes introduced the W220 S-class in 1999-2000, it was ridiculed by Mercedes owners and in the automotive press for looking way too much like the less expensive Mercedes models. In fact, there was quite a scramble amoung Mercedes enthusiasts to buy up the very last of the previous W140 "Panzerwagen" S-Class models -- especially the previous S500 and S600.

I walk past a Lexus ES350 in the company parking lot every day. The first time I saw an LS460, I thought it was an ES350. I've now seen quite a few LS460's and I am still having difficulty in telling an LS460 from an ES350 unless I look at the badge on the trunk lid. OK, my vision sucks but I'm not unconscious. LOL.

Personally, I don't think it is all that bad that it is difficult to tell the bottom of the line from the top of the line Lexus sedan. I kind of like the "stealth" aspect. However, generally, car manufacturers try pretty hard to make their most expensive models really stand out visually from their cheaper models.

Attached are photos of both the ES and new LS. Which is which again?

[SW03ES]

Now was that even necessary? C'mon man. Don't start calling people liars. No need to start a flame.

I guess I'm just opossed to any car maker squeezing the distinction out of a line-up for sake of brand image. Jag, Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, any of them. And, yeah you're right, I definately was quite likely seeing what I wanted to see...A "brand image" that still can't create it's own design cues. But is still borrowing heavily from its little brothers Camry and Avolon.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't calling you a liar, what I meant to mean was that your apparent anger over Lexus establishing a design resemblence through its model line caused you to "not be able to tell the difference" as you've admitted here. You CAN tell the difference.

A bit irrelevant on my part, I realize that, but the S550 is a new design style for Mercedes, much like L-finesse is for Lexus, therefore you aren't going to see as many styling similarities between a new S and a C or an E.

Wait and see the new C, and look at the changes they made to the E to make it look more like the new S. The new mirrors, the new sharper more angulared grille, the new wider chrome strip in the back. Look at the old S and the old C, extremely similar styling.

SW, I am almost sure you have seen a new ES & LS right next to each other, but if you haven't I believe your thoughts on similarities could be different from your current thoughts after seeing the two cars next to each other.

I have seen them side by side, and while yes there are design similarities the LS looks no more like the ES than the ES does the GS, or the GS does the IS.

When Mercedes introduced the W220 S-class in 1999-2000, it was ridiculed by Mercedes owners and in the automotive press for looking way too much like the less expensive Mercedes models. In fact, there was quite a scramble amoung Mercedes enthusiasts to buy up the very last of the previous W140 "Panzerwagen" S-Class models -- especially the previous S500 and S600.

That however never stopped the 00-06 S class from being an extremely popular vehicle, far moreso that its predecessor. The same will be true of the LS460.

[lexuus]

look at the changes they made to the E to make it look more like the new S

sorry but i gotta call u out on this one. they wouldn't have face lifted the E class to make it look more like the new S class. sure their changes to the car might have been influenced by the new style of the S. however, they changed it because they face-lift all their models, just to freshen things up (some changes more minor than others) after 3 years give or take. The E class was introduced in 03, its now 06 and therefore its face-lifted.

[SW03ES]

Then why did every change they made to the E class mimic a design aspect of the S class? To maintain the family look. I'm not saying they face lifted the E just to make it look more like the S, I'm saying the face lift that of course would have been done anyways was done in such a way as to make the E have a family resemblance to the S.

All marques have a family brand image, a styling theme that carries across all their models. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche. What about the new Cayman and the 911? Extremely similar styling and the Cayman is half the cost of the 911. ALL marques do this.

Whats funny is everybody always said it was a negative for Lexus when they didn't have a family look, now everybody says its a negative that they all look the same. These guys can't win.

[rwallican]

When I first saw the LS460 at the Taste of Lexus, I was like "it looks like a bigger ES". Now, I see the difference. Some people will say, why spend the extra money for a car that is similar? Well, the difference is that the LS has many more options, more space, more performance, a better ride, etc., etc., etc. If I could afford the LS, trust me, it would be in the garage.

I think the ES was a genius idea. They are spectacular buys for the money.

[SW03ES]

And all you have to do is sit in an LS and it becomes immediately apparent why it costs more, let alone drive one.

The ES is a genius idea and its a great car. I love mine, and its held up extremely well over the 80k miles I've put on it. Its a LOT of car for the money. It isn't however a replacement for the LS. I will eventually purchase an LS.

[rwallican]

My wife was given an 06 es loaner for about a week. You can definitely tell the difference in the drive and the interior space. It's not nearly as quiet, smooth, or fast.

[lexuus]

Then why did every change they made to the E class mimic a design aspect of the S class? To maintain the family look. I'm not saying they face lifted the E just to make it look more like the S, I'm saying the face lift that of course would have been done anyways was done in such a way as to make the E have a family resemblance to the S.

as i stated earlier, the changes were definitely influenced by the S. in other words u agreed with me... :o

i think its the shape of headlights that seem to cause this illusion of an LS being an ES. i mean a 7-series, 5-series, and 3-series each have differently shaped headlights, so i find it easy to tell one from the other. personally i can distinguish the new lexus models, but can see how some people think they're just blending together. audi seems comparable for this discussion, the A6 and A8 look extremely alike from the front, however theres something in the A6's front fascia that enables me to tell the difference. these differences are there in the ES & LS, I guess its just harder for some to find these differences.

looking forward to SW's rebuttal to my bmw & audi references, if any.

[UCF3]

Actually, i'm having a problem distincting the Lexus cars. Just yesterday I mistook a GS for an IS in the dark.

I think it's because we're not used the models yet, and haven't been exposed to the differences yet.

Smile guys.

[lexuus]

i myself find the IS & ES extremely hard to distinguish from the front, particularly at night.

[SW03ES]

I just don't see that at all...