Oil Sludge

[RX in NC]

To date I don't have a sludge problem with my wife's 2000 RX300 AWD, now showing 127,600 miles. That's not to say that if we keep this vehicle long enough we'll never have a sludge problem even though the vehicle receives scheduled oil-and-filter changes that I routinely do myself. But I have had to deal with numerous other defects that this vehicle is known for, the most notorious and disappointing being the early transmission failure issue that is well-known on this forum and others like it.

But my point in this posting is simply to state that anyone who doesn't bother to save all maintenance and parts receipts and keep a maintenance log on every vehicle he/she owns doesn't deserve to have any manufacturer come through for them when problems arise. Anyone who has sense enough to find and use forums such as this one knows that problems are going to occur that may require interaction with the dealership or corporate levels. If you don't save your receipts and keep a log for your vehicle, you aren't showing enough personal responsibility to even be driving. Use some common sense and keep your records. You cannot change the way Toyota or any other manufacturer chooses to do business in blowing off known problems, but you can certainly protect yourself and therefore stand a far greater chance of getting your issue repaired on the manufacturer's dime if you have the documentation to prove your case. That's elementary and if you aren't keeping records, you need to be walking or riding the bus, not driving....

[skywagon]

To date I don't have a sludge problem with my wife's 2000 RX300 AWD, now showing 127,600 miles. That's not to say that if we keep this vehicle long enough we'll never have a sludge problem even though the vehicle receives scheduled oil-and-filter changes that I routinely do myself. But I have had to deal with numerous other defects that this vehicle is known for, the most notorious and disappointing being the early transmission failure issue that is well-known on this forum and others like it.

But my point in this posting is simply to state that anyone who doesn't bother to save all maintenance and parts receipts and keep a maintenance log on every vehicle he/she owns doesn't deserve to have any manufacturer come through for them when problems arise. Anyone who has sense enough to find and use forums such as this one knows that problems are going to occur that may require interaction with the dealership or corporate levels. If you don't save your receipts and keep a log for your vehicle, you aren't showing enough personal responsibility to even be driving. Use some common sense and keep your records. You cannot change the way Toyota or any other manufacturer chooses to do business in blowing off known problems, but you can certainly protect yourself and therefore stand a far greater chance of getting your issue repaired on the manufacturer's dime if you have the documentation to prove your case. That's elementary and if you aren't keeping records, you need to be walking or riding the bus, not driving....

I don't either and have run 9 lexuses to over 100K each. use good full synthetic with a high flash point and change oil on a regular schedule and you will not sludge up. Part of the sludge problem is cheap dino oil that cannot stand the heat of the newer engines and cokes up. Thankt all i got to say. ;) ;) ;)

[tmastres]

Wow you guys are really taking it to a new level here! I don't think either of you (SW or Tuned) are really arguing different points but rather nit-picking each other to death. Of course its difficult to prove 7,500 mi is too long of an OCI with dino oil yet we all (most) seem to change our oil at 5k or less with synth oil. We can certainly argue that 7,500 is OK but we certainly don't practice it ?!

Also I think that saying

" I don't care what you do. I do however think this issue is way overblown and constantly reading the whining from people like you " is a bit insulting. But then again thats just my opinion and I can't prove it as a fact :)

C'mon guys lets lighten up a bit :D

[GWELEX]

I've recently had an oil gel problem creating a sudden loss of oil, within the last week to be exact. My '01 RX has sludge and has seized at the cam bearing. I have receipts for oil changes that are well within the minimum requirements since my ownership of the vehicle 2 1/2 years ago. The Lexus mechanic told me outright there is a design flaw with the valve cover, but that the Lexus/Toyota stand is poor maintenace. The dealership has denied my claim. My case currently is in litagation with Corporate Lexus. There are many reports of this problem, several with beyond normal maintenance, oil changes at 3K or less on a regular basis. Here are a few posts by other owners:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007...settlement.html

These are only a few of the over 4000 sludge complaints to date. As time goes on this number will increase. Hang on to your letters and save your receipts, they are only good until 2010 that's when the extended program ends for the 2002 models. Not all of these people are lairs and whiners.

[Ericok]

I've recently had an oil gel problem creating a sudden loss of oil, within the last week to be exact. My '01 RX has sludge and has seized at the cam bearing. I have receipts for oil changes that are well within the minimum requirements since my ownership of the vehicle 2 1/2 years ago.

You have a '01 RX300 that you've owned for 2 1/2 years. This is 2007. Have the oil change receipts from the previous owner? Maybe you should sue him for not maintaining the vehicle and then sticking you with it.

How can you be in litigation with Toyota? They give you an 8 year unlimited miles warranty on the engine against sludge. You just have to show you've changed the oil ONCE A YEAR! Doesn't make sense.

Lastly, any Lexus mechanic that told you there's a design flaw in the valve cover shouldn't be allowed near a wrench. Design flaw in the cylinder head maybe - but not the valve cover.

[Ericok]

But my point in this posting is simply to state that anyone who doesn't bother to save all maintenance and parts receipts and keep a maintenance log on every vehicle he/she owns doesn't deserve to have any manufacturer come through for them when problems arise.

I agree with your point, but for the RX300 you just have to suck it up and make sure you've had ALL your oil changes at the Lexus dealer. Anything less, you're asking for trouble if you end up arguing with Toyota about sludge.

[SW03ES]

But my point in this posting is simply to state that anyone who doesn't bother to save all maintenance and parts receipts and keep a maintenance log on every vehicle he/she owns doesn't deserve to have any manufacturer come through for them when problems arise. Anyone who has sense enough to find and use forums such as this one knows that problems are going to occur that may require interaction with the dealership or corporate levels. If you don't save your receipts and keep a log for your vehicle, you aren't showing enough personal responsibility to even be driving. Use some common sense and keep your records. You cannot change the way Toyota or any other manufacturer chooses to do business in blowing off known problems, but you can certainly protect yourself and therefore stand a far greater chance of getting your issue repaired on the manufacturer's dime if you have the documentation to prove your case. That's elementary and if you aren't keeping records, you need to be walking or riding the bus, not driving....

Yes, this is precisely my point. Companies are companies, and unfortunately when the chips are down almost all companies will choose to protect their own interests rather than own up to what customers deserve. Anyone who cries foul when this happens because they couldn't be bothered to keep the tools to force the company to live up to their promises has nobody to blame but themselves.

Look, I don't want to fight and I think tmastres is right, I think we agree on this point more than we disagree. There's two sides to every coin, yes there is a design issue and yes it is made MUCH more serious by not maintaining the vehicle properly.

My attitude, in all facets of life, is that the only person I can depend on is myself. So I use fully synthetic oil and I keep all my reciepts. If I ever should have a sludge issue, you can bet your behind there will be no chance that I will have to pay a penny. I think more people need to take this attitude.

Also I do not believe you are affiliated with Toyota, I made the comments because others do. I respected you when you switched position on the tranny issue after doing your research. I just urge you to do the same with sludge issue. Time will tell and truth will eventually comes out.

I most certainly am not affiliated with Toyota. I'm a real estate broker. As far as the transmission is concerned, yes I do believe there is a design flaw there, just as I have said there is a design flaw here. The difference is that here Toyota has stepped up and admitted that its a problem and is offering what seems to be an extremely fair repair program. Understanding business and specifically the automobile industry as I do I ligitimately don't know what else they could feasibly do. As to the poster who has had the car for 2.5 years and has no history before that, shame on him for buying a car with no maintenance history. There's a shared repsonsibility here.

Everyone keeps talking about data that shows owners that have normal maintenance records having sludge but hasn't shown any of it, and I've never heard of a case myself first hand from someone. If you can show me some, please do.

As far as the transmission concern, I do believe there is a design issue there too. However I do still believe that the proportion of vehicles that display that concern is pretty low compared to the ones that don't, and I also believe thats exacerbated by maintenance too.

Its still my assertion that if you were to buy an AWD RX300 new, change the tranny fluid every 15k and the oil every 5k, you'd get 200,000 sludge free, original transmission miles. Now, originally Lexus didn't call for sufficient tranny fluid changes, but they've always reccomended 5k oil changes through their dealer network.

[GWELEX]

I've recently had an oil gel problem creating a sudden loss of oil, within the last week to be exact. My '01 RX has sludge and has seized at the cam bearing. I have receipts for oil changes that are well within the minimum requirements since my ownership of the vehicle 2 1/2 years ago.

You have a '01 RX300 that you've owned for 2 1/2 years. This is 2007. Have the oil change receipts from the previous owner? Maybe you should sue him for not maintaining the vehicle and then sticking you with it.

How can you be in litigation with Toyota? They give you an 8 year unlimited miles warranty on the engine against sludge. You just have to show you've changed the oil ONCE A YEAR! Doesn't make sense.

Lastly, any Lexus mechanic that told you there's a design flaw in the valve cover shouldn't be allowed near a wrench. Design flaw in the cylinder head maybe - but not the valve cover.

Your first statement is riculous, a used car is a used car.

I agree with your 2nd statement, but the fact remains they denied the claim.

Yes there is a new valve cover design due to the oil sludge problem, not a new head.

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=1090

[TunedRX300]

We don't know what previous owner did, so let's not assume automatically that he did not change oil.

FYI, there is a member,rx93, on the other forum who reported similiar abnormal, sudden increase of oil consumption with no substantial oil leak. I don't think it is allowed to put a URL link but this is a direct quote of rx93.

I did my last two oil changes and noticed that I lost 1/2 qt first time and 1 qt recently oil change. There is no leaking sign when inspected the oil pan. Is this normal oil consumption for 5k/4mo interval oil changes? I have 2000 rx300 with 80K mi.

From his detailed description of maintenance history, he is not an abusive owner, changed oil every 5K

Here is my record/info about RX300:

- bought it september of 1999

- oil change interval 5K mil or 4mo-6mo

- 30K and 60K service from dealership

- both headlight replaced under warranty(moisture buildup)

- replace "D" indicator light under warranty

- replace rear wipe arm under warranty

- fixed the interior noise by dealer, i think they put some plastic/rubber to fill the cabinet door gap.

- original tire wear out around 30K, then Michelin Cross Terrain still 6/32 left

- New break pad around 60K(yes, 60k from original pad)

- New battery @60K

- noise from belt worst during winter

- squezze steering column during winter

- drain n fill ATF around 60K - diy

- switch to synethic around 60K - diy

From UOAs and a few cases reported here, it is clear that skywagon's comment is correct, dino oil is not sufficient for this engine to have the margin of error in order to avoid sludge. Like SW03ES, I too use Mobil 1 since my third oil change and I have written down DIY oil changes in a log. But is it sufficient to claim sludge warranty? God knows and I don't plan to find out myself.

In addition, if one believes Mobil 1 5w-30 will last 7500 miles under non-severe driving condition, search for UOAs in BITOG and you will find out it is not true. 1mz-fe is tough on oil, if owner does not shorten up oil change intervals, he may drive around thousands of miles with depleted oil per oil change. Whether the owner knowningly forgets oil change or unkowningly uses oil that is already spent, the result, unfortunately, is sludge formation.

[Ericok]

Your first statement is riculous, a used car is a used car.

I agree with your 2nd statement, but the fact remains they denied the claim.

Yes there is a new valve cover design due to the oil sludge problem, not a new head.

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=1090

Why is my first statement ridiculous? A used car IS a used car ... you never know with certainty what you're getting. My point was the previous owner didn't take care of the vehicle and now you're paying the price.

The fact that Toyota denied the claim still doesn't make sense. There's got to be more to the story than you let on. You can link the Center for Auto Safety all you want but they're not going to cover your repair. You have to show Toyota that the car got regular oil changes throughout its life (read my other post on how to do this).

I never said there wasn't a new valve cover - just that it's not the solution to the problem. If it was just a valve cover baffle, everyone could get satisfaction by going out and purchasing new valve covers or by tearing out the existing baffles. As the technician quoted in the in the link states, "changing the bafles won't fix the problem". He claims the problem is too high a heat in the cylinger head area due to reduced size of the coolant passages. That's a cylinder head issue. That's expensive to fix. That's why Toyota wants proof that the vehicle was maintained.

[GWELEX]

Just a quick update on my situation. The Lexus dealership had denied our claim, so we took the next step and contacted Lexus corporate. After 3 phone calls back and forth over a span of a couple of weeks, last Monday, Jan 29th, I received a phone call from corporate and they have stepped up and will provide us with a brand new engine. It may take 5-6 weeks for everything to be completed but once again I am proud to be a Lexus owner. There never was "more to the story", it was business trying save a buck. You have to stand up and provide the proof (receipts) and be prepared to take it to the next level if you have to.

[tmastres]

Just a quick update on my situation. The Lexus dealership had denied our claim, so we took the next step and contacted Lexus corporate. After 3 phone calls back and forth over a span of a couple of weeks, last Monday, Jan 29th, I received a phone call from corporate and they have stepped up and will provide us with a brand new engine. It may take 5-6 weeks for everything to be completed but once again I am proud to be a Lexus owner. There never was "more to the story", it was business trying save a buck. You have to stand up and provide the proof (receipts) and be prepared to take it to the next level if you have to.

Great news, glad to hear Lexus stepped up. Thanks for keeping us informed on your situation.

[TunedRX300]

GWELEX,

Great to hear that Toyota picked up the repair. Even though you will keep oil change receipts, I recommend you to use a Group IV based true synthetic oil for better oxidation protection and oil flow during Alaska's extreme cold winters.

Consumer Report noted that 3400 sludge engines reported by Toyota is not updated since 2002. Toyota knows actual number of sludged engines, it just has not release an updated figures for five years.

[GWELEX]

To both responses thanks for the support. We (the wife) will keep this engine maintained well beyond factory recomendations. Synthetic is a good suggestion, as a matter of fact, Corporate suggested that our extreme temperatures here in Alaska may have been the cause of the sudden oil loss and the sludge that had built up. I do want to say this, sludge in the engine head wasn't as bad as I have seen pictured over the internet but none the less still apparent and visible. Sudden oil loss was what cause our engine to fail, which is also a sympton of an oil sludge engine.