I Drove The New Ls460...now I'm Wondering?

[SW03ES]

That makes absolutely zero sense...

[needone]

That makes absolutely zero sense...

Pleae explain what part of my short respone made "absolutely zero sense". I can list several items that are compromises between customer convenience and manufacturing economy. In each of these instances the customer lost. Please let us know your exposure to the LS460/460L so we can appreciate your perspective. In my case I only have 100Kmiles in a 430 and 10K in a 460L. Harvesting is reaping the rewards of what you have planted earlier. Careless harvesting can damage future crops. Have you ever heard of "eating your seed corn"?

[SW03ES]

The statement "they have sacrificed customer satisfaction for marketability" makes no sense. Give me one instance that a carmaker can make a car more marketable while making its customers less satisfied? Marketability and customer satisfaction go hand in hand.

And you still ramble on with stuff like "eating your own seed corn"? What on earth are you rattling on about?

As for my experience, I've been an LS enthusiast since the car first came out. My father put 160k on a 98 LS400 that I had a lot of involvement in and currently has an 04 LS430. I've extensively driven the 04-06 LS430 and am starting to drive the LS460 anticipating purchasing one in the spring.

As for cost cutting, where? Tell me some areas they have reduced satisfaction from the 430?

[texagun]

.

[needone]

You know SW03ES, I am going to try and stay impersonal with this response even though you insist on words like "still you ramble", "rattling on" and "makes zero sense". I can assure you that I am able to spar with you if that is what you want, but frankly I do not believe that personal degradations have any place on a forum. First of all, I don't believe your personal experience involves using much of your own money so how can you identify with or understand the frustration of someone who has dumped $80K into a car only to find that there are a number of arbitrary and unreasonable design inconsistencies in the car"

First, a rather simple but very revealing change in the 460. A simple hook in the trunk to which the cargo net is attached. As I recall, the 430 had a plastic hook that was inserted into a stamped hole in the body sheet metal and then turned 90 degrees to lock it in, much like a bayonet base lamp. The 460 has a rectangular hole stamped in the body into which a plastic hook is pushed. Two fingers (part of the same plastic casting as the hook) snap into the hole and are meant to hold it in. The problem is, if there is a load on the net and the trunk gets up to summer temperatures, the hooks fall out. This is an example of reengineering for either a less expensive hook or an assembly time reduction that was implemented without sufficient design analysis, if an analysis revealed that there might be a problem someone decided the savings were worth the risk. Another cost cutting or lack of depth in the design has to do with the headlights. According to the dealer and others, the dark band that exists between the high and low beams during high beam operation cannot be reduced. The headlight aiming function moves both the high and low beams as a unit. How about remote start? Many many modern cars from GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyoto, Nissan, BMW and so forth offer remote start as either an option or as standard. Lexus cannot and will not add the function to a 460 "that's the way it's designed". Radar cruise will not likely be in your 460 unless you order the collision avoidance system and then I believe it is Laser. In any event, the ordinary optioned 460 at $10K over base sticker does not have the radar cruise so popular in the 430, do you think it was safety or economy that triggered this deduction?

As for "eating your seed corn" when things got really hopeless in the pioneer winters, the worst thing a family could do was to eat their seed corn because they would have nothing to plant in the spring and they would perish. My analogy was seed corn to good will. When a company starts depending on previously earned good will to carry them through rather than practicing continued customer support they are essentially consuming their good will.

You asked for one example of where a company sacrificed customer satisfaction for marketability. How about the 1955 Ford that was released with a white dashboard in some color combinations, looked great except if you were driving it you couldn't see out past the glare, Ford repainted.

Please consider your use of inflammatory verbiage; it only detracts from the objectivity of the forum.

[SW03ES]

I can assure you that I am able to spar with you if that is what you want, but frankly I do not believe that personal degradations have any place on a forum.

And I have made no personal degridations towards you or anyone else here. Its just that you ramble on here spouting opinions and exagerrated statements and offer nothing in the form of actual greivances telling people "you'll be dissapointed!" and stuff like that which doesn't help anyone without actual instances of what you're not satisfied with. Hopefully the post I'm responding to here will be different.

First of all, I don't believe your personal experience involves using much of your own money so how can you identify with or understand the frustration of someone who has dumped $80K into a car only to find that there are a number of arbitrary and unreasonable design inconsistencies in the car"

Well, I am planning to purchase an LS460 in the spring. My experience was meant only to show that I am very familiar with the Lexus LS and in no way was meant as a disparagement of your opinion. Quite the contrary, I've asked for more of your insight into this matter.

First, a rather simple but very revealing change in the 460. A simple hook in the trunk to which the cargo net is attached. As I recall, the 430 had a plastic hook that was inserted into a stamped hole in the body sheet metal and then turned 90 degrees to lock it in, much like a bayonet base lamp... if an analysis revealed that there might be a problem someone decided the savings were worth the risk.

How about remote start? Many many modern cars from GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyoto, Nissan, BMW and so forth offer remote start as either an option or as standard. Lexus cannot and will not add the function to a 460 "that's the way it's designed".

I am not aware of one vehicle from any of the carmakers you mentioned that offers a remote start from the factory. Please name some.

In any event, not every vehicle is going to have every option you may be interested in. Remote starts are very easy to install aftermarket. Since this is not equipment Lexus has ever offered, how can it be considered cost cutting?

Radar cruise will not likely be in your 460 unless you order the collision avoidance system and then I believe it is Laser. In any event, the ordinary optioned 460 at $10K over base sticker does not have the radar cruise so popular in the 430, do you think it was safety or economy that triggered this deduction?

Radar cruise was never very popular in the LS430 and was only available with the Ultra Luxury model which constituted less than 5% of all LS430 sales. No real change here. The reason its packaged with the PCS system is they use the same sensor, that only makes sense.

As for "eating your seed corn" when things got really hopeless in the pioneer winters, the worst thing a family could do was to eat their seed corn because they would have nothing to plant in the spring and they would perish. My analogy was seed corn to good will.

Ah, so thats what you're talking about. Made absolutely no sense to me.

You asked for one example of where a company sacrificed customer satisfaction for marketability. How about the 1955 Ford that was released with a white dashboard in some color combinations, looked great except if you were driving it you couldn't see out past the glare, Ford repainted.

I think that scenario shows that customer satisfaction was not sacrificed for marketability, quite the opposite since Ford chose to repaint the dashboard even though the color was marketable.

Anyways in 1955 my parents were still pre-teens. How about an example that has some relevance on the current business world?

Anywho, while I agree with you little changes to quality points are bothersome (read my posts about the new ES350), I think the benefits of the things they've done to the LS460 over the LS430 outweigh the negatives. Yes the LS is an expensive car, but it is still a significant cost savings over the other cars in its segment. The LS has always been light on features compared to the competiton, thats changing but when you look at the added features, style, and performance relative to the price jump from the 430 its a good package.

So, let me get this straight. Some hook is different in the trunk, the headlights can't be adjusted the way you want, there's no remote start which the LS has never had, and you can't just buy the PCS system with the radar cruise? Those are significant failures?

Perhaps you should have done more research before you purchased. As you said, $80,000 is a lot to commit.

Please consider your use of inflammatory verbiage; it only detracts from the objectivity of the forum.

Same to you.

[needone]

SW03ES, I am sorry, but I think your're out of your league. I know you won't understand that statement, but others will. To conclude this childish exchange I will answer one of your questions in a way you may understand. Some of the vehicles that currently offer remote start as a factory installed option include Toyota Avalon,Tundra, Highlander, Camry;Cadillac - all models, Chevrolet Malibu, Buick Lucerne - do your homework and grow up before you pontificate again. (look it up)

[SW03ES]

LOL, what is your deal? Why am I "out of my league" simply because I disagree with you? Get over yourself. I am as completely entitled to my opinion as you are, and I know just as much about the automobile industry and the Lexus LS as you do, probably more. The person being childish in this exchange is you. I presented my opinions in a respectful, comprehensive, and concise manner. You choose to put me down instead of responding, how sad. Won't work because I know better.

Do us all a favor, if you're going to use the boards for discussions and to express your opinions, great. Thats why *I* and everyone else associated with this forum worked so hard to build this place and continue to work hard to keep it running and growing so that *you* could have a place to discuss your car with other Lexus owners. Everyone else here is just as entitled to their opinions as you, and they have a right to express them without you trying to put them down. Think about that before you lecture me on what is and is not good for this forum, and keep your ego in check.

As for the remote start in those models you are correct, all Cadillacs have remote start as do many other upper end GM cars.

According to Toyota.com there is no remote start option for the Camry, please see the attached options and features roster:

http://www.toyota.com/camry/models.html

None on the Avalon either:

http://www.toyota.com/avalon/models.html

None on the Highlander:

http://www.toyota.com/highlander/models.html

So, yes you're right GM does seem to offer remote start as a factory option. Just because they do doesn't mean "everyone else" does. The LS' main target competition does not. And like I said, it is an aftermarket option in fact my dealer installs them all the time.

If factory remote start was such a deal breaker for you maybe you should have bought a Cadillac.

[nc211]

Give it up Needone, I'm convinced the man is a lawyer in sheep's clothing, plus, not to mention, he lives and transacts business in Washington, DC.. The spin capital of all mankind... The man knows his LS, he's on some kind of government watch list for being a top LS stalker. I think he's wired into the Toyota Brain-Matrix as he seems to know design characterists of the 2015 model series, even the thermonuclear HP of the rear !Removed! massage thingy. We're all going to throw him a party when he finally pulls the trigger on a new one! At which time, world peace will break out, and the entire Swedish bikini ski-team will dance naked in the streets.

Don't make us contact Monarch for reference points. I hear he's off of soft foods now, and capable of speaking in full sentences again.

[SW03ES]

LMAO nc. I'm a man of many connections as you so very well know ;)

[Sal Collaziano]

Great post! Thank you for all the comparisons!

Let me say up front I love my LS430. I came from Mercedes and BMW's and I love the quality, reliability, and comfort of my LS430. So I went and test drove the new LS460. Drove it about 15 miles, on streets, country roads, and interstate highway. It is a wonderful car and drove great...absolutely no complaints...........but............I did not see that great of a difference between the LS460 and my LS430. I expected the steering feel to be much improved after talking with the salesman, but I could not detect any significant difference. Power was greater, the 8-speed transmission shifted more often, but frankly, I think I prefer my LS430. I would be interested to hear the impressions of you who currently own an LS430, and have driven the new LS460. What differences did you notice, and if you liked it better, why?

I am writing my detailed experience so that you can appropriately weigh in my comments and put them in contex.

I have owned 5 LS cars - 90, 95, 98, 2001, 2007. The 90 was in a league of its own - far ahead of its competition - I put 250,000 miles on it and kept it for 9 years or so. I did not like the 95 better (less solid than 90). Transmission was apparently made lighter. There was nothing wrong with a 95 but it was really the same (less?) car. The 98 was quite an improvement over the 95 - quicker too. My first Nav and it worked fine. The 2001 was really not a major improvement. At the same time period, I had owned a Merc s class AMG. The 430 was quicker in city and convenient to drive. the s class was felt a bit heavy in city driving but was simply superb on the highway. the ls 430 was simply not in the same league beyond 75 mph. But the merc engine and transmission felt a lot less refined than the lexus'.

Recently, I test drove the S550. It felt more like my old ls 430 (quiet and a slightly floaty ride! - it almost felt that merc was following lexus!).

I did test drive the standard 460L but I really don't remember how it felt. Mine is the touring/sport version - with 19" tires, bigger brakes, air suspension. My 95 had air suspension but I really did not find it to be superior. My 98 and 2001 did not have air suspension. But this 2007's air suspension is clearly superior to my 95's.

I do agree with you that the steering feel is really not too different from previous cars (actually even the 90 felt pretty much the same). If you really want the best steering feel - you should drive Audi A8! Between LS 460, S550 and A8, The A8 has the best steering feel and fun factor of driving. I was less impressed with S500 - Obviously it too is quite good of course - I preferred my ls 460.

Besides the steering feel, the 460L is, in my opinion, a clearly desirable car and the 430 should be a quick trade in. Considering your preference for steering feel, you should buy the sport/touring version (available by special order) and use it in sport setting. Granted, it would not drive like an A8 or a 750il. Assuming that monetary factor is not an issue, I would encourage you to trade in your 430 for a sport 460L. You will be quite pleased. Perhaps your local dealer has a sport version demo? They are not very common. In fact, my local dealer asked me to do him a favor and let one of his customers drive it (which I obliged and that person immediately ordered the sport package). There is one issue with the touring version you have to understand - its tires and brakes will have half the life of the normal car. I do not know whether it stops shorter or better but I am pleased. I really don't mind changing the tires/brakes. After all, lexus is low maintenance anyway!

[Sal Collaziano]

I've heard from several people that they felt the suspension was tighter in the 98-00 models than others.

Let me say up front I love my LS430. I came from Mercedes and BMW's and I love the quality, reliability, and comfort of my LS430. So I went and test drove the new LS460. Drove it about 15 miles, on streets, country roads, and interstate highway. It is a wonderful car and drove great...absolutely no complaints...........but............I did not see that great of a difference between the LS460 and my LS430. I expected the steering feel to be much improved after talking with the salesman, but I could not detect any significant difference. Power was greater, the 8-speed transmission shifted more often, but frankly, I think I prefer my LS430. I would be interested to hear the impressions of you who currently own an LS430, and have driven the new LS460. What differences did you notice, and if you liked it better, why?

Not exactly a reply to to your question but I feel the same way about the difference between my 2000 LS400 and my 2006 LS430.To me the handling and steering are better in the 2000 LS400 than the newer LS 430.I blame it on the 18" tires.To me it is a downgrade in quality.