Ethanol

[brandondiem]

Well the topic of Ethanol as a replacement additive to MBTE has been exhausted in some of my boating forums this past spring. I am surprised to see relatively no attention to this in forums regarding the change in our vehicles fuel. I thought I would post the following from one of my boating forums that points out some of the issues this new blend of gas is causing in 2 and 4 stroke boat engines.

—Ethanol combines with water formed by condensation in the fuel tank. Without specialized fuel/water separators, that could deliver bad gas to your motor.

—Ethanol can carry dissolved particles to the motor because it has detergent qualities not found in gas with MBTE. It tends to dissolve deposits in fuel tanks and those get sent along to the engine unless you’ve upgraded your fuel/water separator and replace it when needed.

—If you have an older fiberglass fuel tank (made before the mid-1980s), ethanol could even dissolve the tank. Don’t worry about a ruptured fuel tank, however. Long before it ate that much resin, the dissolved chemicals would coat your engine parts and ruin the motor.

—Even without dissolved resins getting into the mix, ethanol gas tends to react negatively with gaskets and other equipment and some Connecticut repair shops had trouble keeping certain supplies in stock last season.

—Those boaters with metal tanks and good filters still have to worry about the way they fuel up. In the past, people often kept the tank topped off by filling up at the end of a trip. Ethanol fuel loses its octane rating in as little as a few weeks. You’ll lose performance unless you keep just fresh gas in the tank.

—Ethanol gas does not mix well with MBTE gas. You should burn off as much of the old fuel as you can before adding new gas this season.

[monarch]

In the upper Midwest, ethanol gasoline has been on the market for many years and here in Calif. most gas stations started using ethanol in place of MTBE last year. It hasn't been causing any problems in Toyota / Lexus vehicles.

[Grumpa72]

—Ethanol combines with water formed by condensation in the fuel tank. Without specialized fuel/water separators, that could deliver bad gas to your motor.

—Ethanol can carry dissolved particles to the motor because it has detergent qualities not found in gas with MBTE. It tends to dissolve deposits in fuel tanks and those get sent along to the engine unless you’ve upgraded your fuel/water separator and replace it when needed.

—If you have an older fiberglass fuel tank (made before the mid-1980s), ethanol could even dissolve the tank. Don’t worry about a ruptured fuel tank, however. Long before it ate that much resin, the dissolved chemicals would coat your engine parts and ruin the motor.

—Even without dissolved resins getting into the mix, ethanol gas tends to react negatively with gaskets and other equipment and some Connecticut repair shops had trouble keeping certain supplies in stock last season.

—Those boaters with metal tanks and good filters still have to worry about the way they fuel up. In the past, people often kept the tank topped off by filling up at the end of a trip. Ethanol fuel loses its octane rating in as little as a few weeks. You’ll lose performance unless you keep just fresh gas in the tank.

—Ethanol gas does not mix well with MBTE gas. You should burn off as much of the old fuel as you can before adding new gas this season.

While I am sure that there are issues with ethanol, I am not certain that all of the points you bring up are bad. I am relying on decades old chemistry here but, ethanol combining with water is a good thing if the moisture is in your tank. The majority of fuel line deicers contain alcohol just because it DOES bond with moisture. You want the water bonded to the alcohol so that it will be consumed in the engine. In the old days, we used to clean the engines by slowly pouring water into the carb which would cause the water to turn to steam and do a back-yard head cleaning job. The only vehicles that need a specific water/fuel separator are diesels. I have to maintain my old Mercedes diesel meticulously to keep water out. Bad for the injectors because of the pressures. Second fact, ethanol carries disolved matter into your fuel system. It was my understanding that gasoline is a FAR better solvent than alcohol. Of course, any solvent will carry disolved "stuff" into your fuel system. That is one reason why we have a very good fuel filter. Next fact - are our fuel tanks fiberglass or is that a reference to the boating circle? Gasoline is also a very good disolver of fiberglass. In that classic Corvette world, some of the early 60s Corvettes had a large, 36 gallon fiberglass fuel tank. Owners of these 40 year old cars are reporting that the resin in the fiberglass is being disolved and fuel leaks are occuring. Of course, GM probably never intended for these fuel tanks to last 40+ years. I think that the only substantial complaint that you posted is that the ethanol attacks rubber hoses and gaskets. I think that the manufacturers are taking care of this and wouldn't be surprised if Toyota doesn't already have ethanol friendly gaskets and rubber.

Gary

[brandondiem]

While I am sure that there are issues with ethanol, I am not certain that all of the points you bring up are bad. I am relying on decades old chemistry here but, ethanol combining with water is a good thing if the moisture is in your tank. The majority of fuel line deicers contain alcohol just because it DOES bond with moisture. You want the water bonded to the alcohol so that it will be consumed in the engine. In the old days, we used to clean the engines by slowly pouring water into the carb which would cause the water to turn to steam and do a back-yard head cleaning job. The only vehicles that need a specific water/fuel separator are diesels. I have to maintain my old Mercedes diesel meticulously to keep water out. Bad for the injectors because of the pressures. Second fact, ethanol carries disolved matter into your fuel system. It was my understanding that gasoline is a FAR better solvent than alcohol. Of course, any solvent will carry disolved "stuff" into your fuel system. That is one reason why we have a very good fuel filter. Next fact - are our fuel tanks fiberglass or is that a reference to the boating circle? Gasoline is also a very good disolver of fiberglass. In that classic Corvette world, some of the early 60s Corvettes had a large, 36 gallon fiberglass fuel tank. Owners of these 40 year old cars are reporting that the resin in the fiberglass is being disolved and fuel leaks are occuring. Of course, GM probably never intended for these fuel tanks to last 40+ years. I think that the only substantial complaint that you posted is that the ethanol attacks rubber hoses and gaskets. I think that the manufacturers are taking care of this and wouldn't be surprised if Toyota doesn't already have ethanol friendly gaskets and rubber.

Gary

This is the kind of post I was hoping to see. It just seems the ethanol has many in the boating community on edge.

[fsuguy]

Hi,

I happened to top off my tank (1992 LS400) with super unleaded from a Hess and am not sure whether the gas actually contained ethanol. The sign on the pump said 'less than 10% ethanol', but I am now noticing that the engine (have not put in any other gas) is sort of bogging down.

Any ideas of what to look for or do to resolve this would be much appreciated.

Thx

Mike

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[mccldwll]

Aren't we using up a lot of grain to make Ethanol? Do the benefits out way the costs? We may be paying more for grain food soon! <_<

We've been paying more for grain for a while now, more fuel overall is used to produce ethanol, the energy yield per gallon is lower,

it's entirely political (midwest states), the costs far outweigh the benefits, the "chickens came home to roost" much sooner than the administration hoped on this (wanted to stretch it out until after election) and everyone has recognized the stupidity of using food to produce fuel as we're now in a world food crisis PLUS there is a problem with using ethanol in tanks-- in cool, humid conditions (such as in underground tanks) it will form into gelatinous masses with crud in tank and can clog up socks and filters.

[KBRX330]

I live in Ohio where we grow corn & soybeans for fuels but have no State gasoline regulations. So we get all the bad gasoline here that doesn't meet other State regs. So keeping your fuel system clean here is a must. I use Redline S-1 cleaner in my RX about every 20,000 miles. If you don't for some reason you will notice decreased performance with the ethanol fuels. Not sure why though.

[MickRX350]

:( On 5/7/08 I put ethanol gas into my leased RX350 at a Mobile station. At $2.99 a gallon, it saved me $7.00 on a tank of gas, but an hour later the engine and VSC lights went on. I made sure the gas cap was on correctly.

The following day, I went to the dealership. To get the lights to turn off, they had to do all sorts of diagnostic work and finally drain all the gas out of the car. I don't think there was any damage to the car and it was running fine. But now, I owe the dealership $300 for their time and a tank of gas since "bad gas" is not under warranty.

It ended up being a very expensive little experiment! I don't know that ethanol is necessarily bad, I just know that it isn't compatible with the electronic instruments in my Lexus and I couldn't take any chances that using up the entire tank might have damaged the engine.

Has anyone else had this experience or have any advice regarding my $300 bill?

[stuart8181]

:( On 5/7/08 I put ethanol gas into my leased RX350 at a Mobile station. At $2.99 a gallon, it saved me $7.00 on a tank of gas, but an hour later the engine and VSC lights went on. I made sure the gas cap was on correctly.

The following day, I went to the dealership. To get the lights to turn off, they had to do all sorts of diagnostic work and finally drain all the gas out of the car. I don't think there was any damage to the car and it was running fine. But now, I owe the dealership $300 for their time and a tank of gas since "bad gas" is not under warranty.

It ended up being a very expensive little experiment! I don't know that ethanol is necessarily bad, I just know that it isn't compatible with the electronic instruments in my Lexus and I couldn't take any chances that using up the entire tank might have damaged the engine.

Has anyone else had this experience or have any advice regarding my $300 bill?

Doesn't sound right. Did you use E-85?