Ford: They Don't Make The Taurus Anymore?

[SKperformance]

I still can;t belive anyone asked about a taurus.

The ford 500 comes from its package of

500 cubic inches

500 horsepower

and some other dumb 500 numbers all rolled into the car.

I sat in one and it was such junk.

If hotwheels made cars it would be a ford just plain toy like.

[monarch]

I still say that monarch is on Toyota's payroll somehow....

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No, but since you bring up the subject of possible hidden agendas - sometimes I wonder if there might be an organized conspiracy going on against the RX300 because it seems like every week someone registers on LOC just to make a single post about a bizzare mechanical failure that gets owners deeply concerned and worried and then the person dissappears and won't respond to follow up questions.

[SW03ES]

The Ford Escort was a top seller at one time too and yet Ford stopped production. All American car makers frequently change the names of their models.  Reason?  Nearly all have problems with reliability and durability and eventually the public figures this out and sales plummet.  Then to attract the public's attention again, the American car makers come out with new names like Ford Focus in place of Ford Escort and Ford Five Hundred in place of Ford Taurus, Chevy Malibu in place of Chevy Lumina and so forth and the whole cycle repeats itself again.  The few American cars that have kept their names for along time, like the Buick LeSabre, are the rare ones that at least have average reliability.

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Thats actually not true at all, the reason you've seen the American carmakers change names so much lately is them trying to recapture brand image thats been eroded by reckless sales to fleets and absurd cash incentive sales. They're trying to re-invent themselves, it doesn't have anything to do with trying to "dupe" anyone.

The Focus is an entirely different car than the Escort, designed to appeal to an entirely different buyer, and that exhbits entirely different driving characteristics. Why not give it a new name?

The 500 is an entirely different car than the Taurus, designed to appeal to an entirely different buyer, and that exhbits entirely different driving characteristics. Why not give it a new name?

The Malibu was an attempt to harken back on old brand recognintion, and again, It is an entirely different car than the Lumina, designed to appeal to an entirely different buyer, and that exhbits entirely different driving characteristics. Why not give it a new name?

The Buick Lesabre? Gone after this year.

Since American carmakers change their names "all the time" when, aside from the last 6 or so years, in the last 20 years has an American carmaker changed the name of a vehicle?

[91L3xus]

SK, is this the Ford Five Hundred you're talking about? Or the concept version?

Because the actual model taking the Taurus's place is this ^ car, with I believe a 207 HP V6 engine with a CVT.

[indiasfinest]

I still say that monarch is on Toyota's payroll somehow....

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No, but since you bring up the subject of possible hidden agendas - sometimes I wonder if there might be an organized conspiracy going on against the RX300 because it seems like every week someone registers on LOC just to make a single post about a bizzare mechanical failure that gets owners deeply concerned and worried and then the person dissappears and won't respond to follow up questions.

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and thats the last we heard from him..haha jk

[400h4me]

Where did they get the name Five hundred anyway? I don't really care for that name.

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The name came from the fact that's all the cars really worth!!!! $500 and besides why are we talking about Fords in a Lexus forum anyhow?

[91L3xus]

I really detest brand hating and Chevy *BLEEP* on Ford redneck BS, lets not have that here shall we?

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I'd respect what he says...lol. No company hating.

[blake918]

The name came from the fact that's all the cars really worth!!!! $500 and besides why are we talking about Fords in a Lexus forum anyhow?

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This Ford stuff is getting out of hand. The day I weld the hood shut on my Lexus I'll be right here along side you guys bashing them in to the ground, but until then, I'll keep thinking that they make pretty good products for their respective price classes since we've never had any major problems with the several of them we've had. The 500 starts just under $23k-it's a pretty nice car for the money.

At any rate, this is the general discussions forum where "members can post anything not even related to Lexus."

[SW03ES]

My Lexus has spent plenty of time in the shop and it only has 50k miles. Toyota makes a good car, and it makes a better car than Ford for the most part, but that doesn't mean Ford makes a bad car. It may make some of you feel good abut yourselves to say ignorant things like "Its called the 500 because thats what its worth, $500" is no better than ignorant people calling your precious RX400h an overengineered Sienna minivan than only women should drive. They do. Are they right? No and niether are you.

I'd buy a 500 or a Chrysler 300 before a Camry in a heartbeat because they have more room and they look more upscale for the money. Go drive one, you'll be surprised. Are they as nice as a Lexus? No, but a Lincoln might be someday soon. Lincoln already beat Lexus at customer satisfaction, so did Cadillac this year. Don't count Ford out.

We're discussing Ford because we're CAR PEOPLE and we like to discuss CARS, this is the general discussion forum for things not related to Lexus. We do have other interests that go beyond Lexus. If you don't want to discuss Ford then don't post in this thread.

and thats the last we heard from him..haha jk

I know RX in NC, he and I have had several knock down drag out fights on the forum. If he's no longer posting in a thread he simply doesn't find his competition worth the effort.

[RX in NC]

Thanks for the support, SW03ES.

The actual reason that I haven't posted in several days is because I've been too busy with ongoing construction projects on our home to bother turning my computer on. Real life always takes precedence over keyboard time for me.

As I've said before, monarch drones on and on about the superiority of every single Toyota/Lexus part compared to the rest of the world but rational owners realize that it just isn't true, and could never be. No single manufacturer could possibly assemble any vehicle with 100% world-class parts from top to bottom - there will always be a better mousetrap out there.

Consider the lousy original rear main seals, strut mount rubber bushings, Bridgestone Dueler tires, and other inferior parts that were factory-installed on the early RX300 models. The timing belts are superior but the AC/Alternator belts and Power Steering belts are nothing more than adequate. There are a number of examples that have been proven time and time again that monarch fails to recognize.

The bottom line here is that you're severely restricting your opportunities to improve the quality, performance, and sometimes safety of your vehicle as it requires parts and maintenance if you refuse to accept the fact that there are often better options available to you, frequently at far better prices, than just blindly purchasing the vehicle manufacturer's products without doing a bit of research first. This goes for every single vehicle manufacturer on the planet, including Lexus. Monarch cannot seem to grasp this concept and always espouses his "only Lexus parts" philosophy to others seeking advice, and as a result he hurts them in the long run. And I think that's doing a disservice to the inexperienced folks who come here looking for advice and assistance out of frustration with their particular problem.

[SW03ES]

Or he's trying to make a living lol.

Only to add to what he's saying, remember Lexus dealers mark up their parts as much as 500% from wholesale. So if you must use Lexus parts at least don't buy them from the dealer, buy them from one of the many wholesale part outlets we have availiable to us here.

[JimmyD]

My brother in law's 95 Ford Aerostar. Bought brand new for $24,000. 60k miles to date. In the garage 90% of the time. Only driven on family trips to Disneyland

- broken rear hatch while sitting in garage -- $50

- air conditioner breakdown in '00 -- $300

- AC problem #2 -- $400

- Air bag flashing problem in '01 -- $600

- Air bag flashing problem #2 in '05 -- $500

- 2 major engine repairs -- est. $2000

- 1 major tranny problem -- I forgot, but it was a lot

current problems

- sliding door is stuck and currently can't open. In the shop as we speak

- cracking door panel

- the drivers side door gets stuck to the latch

He wrote a letter to Ford in outrage. The Warrantee had expired just 5 months before all of these problems started. This car was babied like non other. Maintained on time and only by Ford dealerships. It sees premium gas 90% of the time too.

My first car, a Ford Tempo was nothing but a POS. My father's 95 Ford F150 that he bought new has a similar problem sheet to the car above. Finally sold it

Their resale values are garbage as well. A 1995 Ford Aerostar (high output V6) with 100k miles and costs $24,000 and a 1995 Toyota Previa (tiny inline 4 engine) with 100k miles that costs $24,000 in 1995. The Previa is worth twice as much as the Aerostar as of now.

I have also heard stories of Ford's going for 200k miles and even more. And it's nice to know not all of their cars are completely in the POS catagory. My family has bought a lot of new Fords. They never retain any value and they all have broken down at or around 50k miles and if they have not been sold for dirt cheap, they are in a junkyard right now.

btw, my 95 Toyota Camry LE now has 260k miles. ZERO problems, other than normal maintanence. The car has been in my family since 98. It has been beaten up by long 200 mile commutes for years, redlined by teenagers and it is weathered down and looks more like a 1985 car than a 1995 car. Yet it has zero mechanical problems. I'm going to get it painted and will ride it until it dies. Everything that worked on the day this car arrived to the dealership still works today. I won't compare Toyota to Ford any longer, but I will say this: compared to that rattling troubled Ford Tempo, this car feels like a Maybach. No joke. Will never buy Ford again.

[indiasfinest]

amen brother amen

[VBdenny]

Going back to the Taurus. My brother bought a new one in 98 which had multiple problems until the engine let go at 60,000 miles in 2001. Since he was upside down in the car, he bought a 2001 Taurus which has had oil leaks, transmission leaks, starting problems etc. He just took a trip to NYC with his family and it stalled on the way and when he got it started again, the check engine light was on and it is running terrible. I hope he gets the piece of junk home. A 2001 car with under 60,000 miles should not have all these things happen. Maybe Ford trucks are great but the FWD cars are junk.

Maybe the 500 label is to make people think they are in the Indy 500 or something. To pay 25K for a Ford is absurd.

[indiasfinest]

i rest my case...

[LexKid630]

i would never buy a ford.

[SW03ES]

Again, thats a decade old vehicle. 60k miles on a decade old vehicle is actually a NEGATIVE as the vehicle sits for long periods of time and components begin to corrode and degrade.

1995 was 1995, this is 2005 and Ford has made leaps and bounds in product quality. To count them out now is a mistake. Why is paying $25k for a Ford absurd? Again you can get a lot more Ford for $25k than you can Toyota. As for the comparison of a Tempo and a Camry, thats an absurd comparison, of course the Camry will ride better, its twice as expensive a car. If you want to live in 1995, you can. I live in 2005 and the Ford 500 is an excellent car. Go drive one.

My family has owned at least one Ford since 1978. Most of them have been excellent cars, some have not been. I had a 97 Explorer Limited that my parents still have with 180k, while its not troublefree its still solid, and looks and drives well.

My fancy schmantzy Lexus has had almost $10,000 in warranty work done to it and it has only 50k miles. I love the car, and I believe its a better and more refined car than any Ford product but its not bulletproof. I'll never own this car without some sort of warranty though.

Also have to remember how much cheaper parts are for something like a Ford than for something like a Toyota...

[JimmyD]

Again, thats a decade old vehicle. 60k miles on a decade old vehicle is actually a NEGATIVE as the vehicle sits for long periods of time and components begin to corrode and degrade.

Well, my 98 GS4 has 67k miles, which means it hasn't been driven for much. But it hasn't broken down. I wonder if it was a Ford sitting in the garage instead.

I don't just hate on random car companies. I dislike Ford and GM because of personal experience. Even though I hear Dodge is the same POS, never owned a Dodge before so I can't judge it. It is strictly personal experience. It's not that I want to pile it up on Ford, if you go to their message boards and talk to their owners, you would hear a lot of the same stories that I have posted on this thread. Moreso than the good ones. I look around Toyota boards and even this one, and I have rarely seen a story x30 about a Lexus or Toyota that has been sitting in the garage and just broke down on it's own.

I wouldn't want a car that could break down on it's own by just sitting there. Never had one either and never heard of a Toyota breaking down because of it.

1995 was 1995, this is 2005 and Ford has made leaps and bounds in product quality. To count them out now is a mistake. Why is paying $25k for a Ford absurd? Again you can get a lot more Ford for $25k than you can Toyota. As for the comparison of a Tempo and a Camry, thats an absurd comparison, of course the Camry will ride better, its twice as expensive a car. If you want to live in 1995, you can. I live in 2005 and the Ford 500 is an excellent car. Go drive one.

I also respectfully disagree. I take all of these consumer reports initial quality awards as a grain of salt. It's a new car. It better impress. Of course you could tell a Camry from a Taurus by looking at the cheap cost cutting plastic materials all around the car. But other than that, any brand new car should look brand new.

The only way I could judge a 2005 Ford is when at least 5 years have passed. When the compact Chevy Malibu came out in the late 90's, it looked to be a decent little car. 5 years later and they are dirt cheap. I remember commercials comparing it to the Camry. Yeah, the resale value of a 2000 Chevy Malibu compares to a Camry alright, a 1992 Camry that is.

I don't think the 500 is bad looking at all. It looks more expensive than the Taurus and has room. Unfortunately, if I was to buy one, I would pass up on it because of the blue oval in the front and rear. If in 5 years Ford has the resale value of Toyota and reliability of a Toyota, then I would definately consider it. I hope they make better cars and I hope you are right. But from past experiences, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

You cannot judge new car to new car. When my brother in law bought his 95 loaded Ford Aerostar, there was no way you could tell the difference between it and a Toyota Previa. The true test for a car is how it does over time. If Ford made it so that you could tell it was inferior to Toyota even when new, then they are in BIG trouble. But they don't.

As for the Camry vs. Tempo, I agree to an extent. But go on the kelly blue book site, and pin Toyota vs. Ford.

Previa vs. Aerostar

Sienna vs. Windstar/Freestar

Tacoma vs. Ranger

Tundra vs. F150

Camry vs. 500

Corolla vs. Escort/Focus

Sequioa vs. Expedition

4Runner vs. Explorer

Rav4 vs. Escape

Highlander vs. Freestyle

MSRP's are around the same (of course, American cars nowadays offer huge rebates to compete more). But I have a hard time understanding why does the Ford have such low resale values compared to the Toyota. And as the car gets to about 8-12 years old, the Toyota has almost twice better resale value than the Ford. The only other time, besides the day they were first sold, that the Ford and Toyota's resale values are ever even again is the day both cars are beside each other the the junk yard.

It is painful to buy a brand new Taurus in 2000, taken care of throughout the years, and then seeing the value drop faster than a rock through just a few years to the point where your 2000 Taurus with low miles is the same price as a 1995 Toyota Camry with ultra high miles. Oh yeah I personally know how that feels like.

My family has owned at least one Ford since 1978. Most of them have been excellent cars, some have not been. I had a 97 Explorer Limited that my parents still have with 180k, while its not troublefree its still solid, and looks and drives well.

My fancy schmantzy Lexus has had almost $10,000 in warranty work done to it and it has only 50k miles. I love the car, and I believe its a better and more refined car than any Ford product but its not bulletproof. I'll never own this car without some sort of warranty though.

Also have to remember how much cheaper parts are for something like a Ford than for something like a Toyota...

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It's nice to hear that Ford can make a solid and quality vehicle. My family has had Fords for a long time too. My father bought his 1995 Ford F150 supercab brand new. Brother in law's van, my uncles old Fremont and a few more. The ones I just named were all bought brand new. I didn't include my Tempo because it was used.Our family USED to be a Ford family, but bad experiences have ruined it.

Again, I do not bash Ford just for the sake of bashing something. I do hold strong feelings about Ford based on past experience however.

[indiasfinest]

Again, thats a decade old vehicle. 60k miles on a decade old vehicle is actually a NEGATIVE as the vehicle sits for long periods of time and components begin to corrode and degrade.

1995 was 1995, this is 2005 and Ford has made leaps and bounds in product quality. To count them out now is a mistake. Why is paying $25k for a Ford absurd? Again you can get a lot more Ford for $25k than you can Toyota. As for the comparison of a Tempo and a Camry, thats an absurd comparison, of course the Camry will ride better, its twice as expensive a car. If you want to live in 1995, you can. I live in 2005 and the Ford 500 is an excellent car. Go drive one.

My family has owned at least one Ford since 1978. Most of them have been excellent cars, some have not been. I had a 97 Explorer Limited that my parents still have with 180k, while its not troublefree its still solid, and looks and drives well.

My fancy schmantzy Lexus has had almost $10,000 in warranty work done to it and it has only 50k miles. I love the car, and I believe its a better and more refined car than any Ford product but its not bulletproof. I'll never own this car without some sort of warranty though.

Also have to remember how much cheaper parts are for something like a Ford than for something like a Toyota...

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well i guess thats just you cuz the a lot of ppl disagree with u..

please dont take offense 2 this...

[VBdenny]

Sorry if I touched a nerve. I have had several Fords each with major problems, rust through, etc. I would have my eye tooth drilled without Novicaine before I paid 25 grand for a Ford. Sorry, I don't mean to bash either but they just have major problems. I think Ford pickups are pretty good and very dependable vehicles it is their other vehicles that are terrible. For 25 grand I'd go buy a Toyota Corolla S and put 7 grand in the bank.

[SW03ES]

The only nerve is when people are so stuck on their experiences that they offhandly dismiss products that they don't have any experience with. Have any of you driven a new Ford 500 or am I the only one? I have no great love of Ford, but I give credit where credit is due and the new batch of Fords are the best they've ever made. Ford and GM both are working very hard to repair the issues they've had in the past. You say you may buy a Corolla, well the Ford 500 is easily twice as large as a Corolla, and I bet you wouldn't if you had a family to haul around.

Just remember my 50k Lexus has had an entirely new steering rack installed, 8 rattles repaired, new brakes twice to fix a phantom wet braking issue, and two ABS sensors replaced to the tune of almost $10,000 in repairs. In less than 2 years. Our Prius has 9,000 miles and its had three radios, an A/C compressor, and a hybrid drive system recalibrated twice for over $3000 in repairs. Nothings perfect, Toyota makes a great car but its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

well i guess thats just you cuz the a lot of ppl disagree with u..

please dont take offense 2 this...

LOL, its really not just me. Go to a Ford site and post the same statement and see what you get, they'll call your Lexuses things you won't want your children to hear and they'll cite experiences just as bad with Toyotas as the experiences that have been posted here about Fords. You guys have a prejudice against Ford products and they have a prejudice against Toyota products. You're both wrong, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I try to stay objective.

I look around Toyota boards and even this one, and I have rarely seen a story x30 about a Lexus or Toyota that has been sitting in the garage and just broke down on it's own.

I can name you several, Canada Craig's 93 LS400 has had almost the entire suspension and drivetrain replaced because it sat for so long. Your GS is a 98, three years newer than a 95 Aerostar and is driven 2000 more miles a year. Its simply a fact that rubber bushings and seals degrade over time especially when a car sits. Sitiing creates corrosion of lubricated parts etc. We had an 87 Aerostar when I was a kid that my folks had for 7 years and 200,000 miles with only a few problems.

Of course you could tell a Camry from a Taurus by looking at the cheap cost cutting plastic materials all around the car. But other than that, any brand new car should look brand new.

I'm not talking about a Taurus, again go look at a Ford 500, much improved from the Taurus.

As for intial quality, I'm not really talking about initial quality. I'm talking about tactile experience with the vehicles themselves. If you look at Ford's new lineup and compare it to its lineup three years ago the difference is huge, these guys have made huge progress and are re-inventing themselves. Gotta give them credit.

Every car company has its issues. Check out the 400 post long thread in the ES forum about the transmission hesitation. Lexus recalled ALL 2004 LS430s and completely replaced the transmission, there is clearly a problem with the transmissions on AWD RX330s, we've seen transmission failures in ES300s in the high 5 digit and low 6 digit mileages. The 3.0liter V6, Toyotas most used engine has a horrible sludging problem from 1997-2001 effecting MILLIONS of vehicles. These cars aren't perfect. Personally I've seen a pretty steady decline in Toyota's product quality over the past few years. You never heard of the type of roll out issues you're hearing about on Toyotas and Lexuses today. Niether my ES300 or my dad's 04 LS430 are as sturdy as his 98 LS400 was and both of us have had more issues (me more than him) in less than a quarter of that car's mileage than he EVER had on it, in 165,000 miles it had ONE warranty claim. Mine's had 8 or 9, his has had 4 or 5. Ford on the other hand is rapidly improving their quality, you hear less and less of roll out issues with new models.

Give it some time and you might see things flip the other way, its happened before.

Gotta be open to new possibilities.

[JimmyD]

I still fail to see how a car’s door could malfunction when sitting in the garage. Or what does sitting in the garage have to do with the air conditioner system breaking down? Or the air bag warning light malfunction? Honestly, from my experiences with Ford and Chevy, Ford actually has less engine problems, but a lot more all around problems, such as the AC and airbag. I just don’t think they have much to do with the car sitting around.

Toyota will be the #1 automaker in the United States. Only a matter of time. If Toyota offered huge $3000 rebates on their cars and on top of that, put in employee discount prices, I think they will move out most of their cars quickly, except SUV's and trucks, in this era of high gas prices. I hope for Ford's sake that their cars improve. Like I said, I can't and won't judge the 500 now. But if in 5 years, it has poor resale value, poor reliability and is the #1 car for rental car companies, then I will attack it. I don't have anything to judge the 500 on, other the what Ford vehicles have generally been like in my experience, which isn't good. I wouldn’t say that the current Toyota’s will be as good and reliable as the older ones either. But why do I stick to them? Personal experience. Until they prove me wrong, I will stick to them.

I also think it is 100% for a consumer to judge a product based on past experiences. These companies make a ton of money when we buy their products. If they aren’t making the best products, then it is fair for us to judge them on that. It makes you an informed consumer. I think it is essential to do that to every product that you buy in life, no matter if it’s your car or the cell phone service provider. If you’ve had Cingular and it was terrible for you, would you go back? Well, I’ve had Ford and it was terrible and I won’t go back again.

There will never be a perfect car. I’m not saying Toyota is perfect. Of course in any mass production business, there will always be something. I think if you ask 100 people who have owned both Fords and Toyota’s, more will give Toyota a higher mark than the Ford. And with Toyota just surpassing Ford as the World’s 2nd largest automaker, I think it supports this statement. And how many brands does Ford have compared to Toyota, just in the United States alone? Land Rover, Jag, Lincoln, Mercury, Ford, and what else? Toyota’s U.S. market is Toyota, Scion and Lexus.

I just think, for example, if Toyota makes 20 lemon and problem filled vehicles per 100, that Ford makes more than twice that.

btw, I enjoy this argument. Don't take anything personally B)

[SW03ES]

I actually rarely take anything personally and also enjoy a good argument, in case nobody's noticed so don't worry ;)

As for Toyota becoming #1 automaker I think that will happen also. The test will be whether or not they can maintain their levels of quality with the new volume and moving more and more factories to North America. We've already seen reductions in product quality. Ford and GM spent a lot of time at the top and that feeling of being #1 contributed to their downfall, I'm not convinced the same thing won't happen, or is not happening already, to Toyota.

I also think it is 100% for a consumer to judge a product based on past experiences. These companies make a ton of money when we buy their products. If they aren’t making the best products, then it is fair for us to judge them on that. It makes you an informed consumer. I think it is essential to do that to every product that you buy in life, no matter if it’s your car or the cell phone service provider. If you’ve had Cingular and it was terrible for you, would you go back? Well, I’ve had Ford and it was terrible and I won’t go back again.

Sure I agree, but you've got to understand that things change. 1995 was 10 years ago, times change and the brand has improved. I've had Cingular and hated it, but if it improved to where it had better service for the money, I'd try it again.

[monarch]

I hope for Ford's sake that their cars improve. Like I said, I can't and won't judge the 500 now. But if in 5 years, it has poor resale value, poor reliability and is the #1 car for rental car companies, then I will attack it.

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I agree, plus Ford isn't even advertizing the 500 will offer better reliability, durability and resale value compared to the Taurus. Nor is GM making such claims for the all new Malibu as compared to the previous Malibu. And both the 500 and Malibu still offer only a 3 year, 36,000 mile powertrain warranty. Chrysler has a longer powertrain warranty, but it's not as comprehensive as the Toyota 5 year/ 60,000 mile powertrain warranty. So it looks like business as usual at Ford, GM & Chrysler; i.e. they aren't even attempting to compete with the Japanese on reliability / durability / resale value.

[blake918]

btw, my 95 Toyota Camry LE now has 260k miles. ZERO problems, other than normal maintanence. The car has been in my family since 98. It has been beaten up by long 200 mile commutes for years, redlined by teenagers and it is weathered down and looks more like a 1985 car than a 1995 car. Yet it has zero mechanical problems. I'm going to get it painted and will ride it until it dies. Everything that worked on the day this car arrived to the dealership still works today. I won't compare Toyota to Ford any longer, but I will say this: compared to that rattling troubled Ford Tempo, this car feels like a Maybach. No joke. Will never buy Ford again.

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What do you define as normal maintinance? 0 problems is very hard to believe...

The only nerve is when people are so stuck on their experiences that they offhandly dismiss products that they don't have any experience with. Have any of you driven a new Ford 500 or am I the only one? I have no great love of Ford, but I give credit where credit is due and the new batch of Fords are the best they've ever made. Ford and GM both are working very hard to repair the issues they've had in the past. You say you may buy a Corolla, well the Ford 500 is easily twice as large as a Corolla, and I bet you wouldn't if you had a family to haul around.

Just remember my 50k Lexus has had an entirely new steering rack installed, 8 rattles repaired, new brakes twice to fix a phantom wet braking issue, and two ABS sensors replaced to the tune of almost $10,000 in repairs. In less than 2 years. Our Prius has 9,000 miles and its had three radios, an A/C compressor, and a hybrid drive system recalibrated twice for over $3000 in repairs. Nothings perfect, Toyota makes a great car but its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

well i guess thats just you cuz the a lot of ppl disagree with u..

please dont take offense 2 this...

LOL, its really not just me. Go to a Ford site and post the same statement and see what you get, they'll call your Lexuses things you won't want your children to hear and they'll cite experiences just as bad with Toyotas as the experiences that have been posted here about Fords. You guys have a prejudice against Ford products and they have a prejudice against Toyota products. You're both wrong, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I try to stay objective.

I look around Toyota boards and even this one, and I have rarely seen a story x30 about a Lexus or Toyota that has been sitting in the garage and just broke down on it's own.

I can name you several, Canada Craig's 93 LS400 has had almost the entire suspension and drivetrain replaced because it sat for so long. Your GS is a 98, three years newer than a 95 Aerostar and is driven 2000 more miles a year. Its simply a fact that rubber bushings and seals degrade over time especially when a car sits. Sitiing creates corrosion of lubricated parts etc. We had an 87 Aerostar when I was a kid that my folks had for 7 years and 200,000 miles with only a few problems.

Of course you could tell a Camry from a Taurus by looking at the cheap cost cutting plastic materials all around the car. But other than that, any brand new car should look brand new.

I'm not talking about a Taurus, again go look at a Ford 500, much improved from the Taurus.

As for intial quality, I'm not really talking about initial quality. I'm talking about tactile experience with the vehicles themselves. If you look at Ford's new lineup and compare it to its lineup three years ago the difference is huge, these guys have made huge progress and are re-inventing themselves. Gotta give them credit.

Every car company has its issues. Check out the 400 post long thread in the ES forum about the transmission hesitation. Lexus recalled ALL 2004 LS430s and completely replaced the transmission, there is clearly a problem with the transmissions on AWD RX330s, we've seen transmission failures in ES300s in the high 5 digit and low 6 digit mileages. The 3.0liter V6, Toyotas most used engine has a horrible sludging problem from 1997-2001 effecting MILLIONS of vehicles. These cars aren't perfect. Personally I've seen a pretty steady decline in Toyota's product quality over the past few years. You never heard of the type of roll out issues you're hearing about on Toyotas and Lexuses today. Niether my ES300 or my dad's 04 LS430 are as sturdy as his 98 LS400 was and both of us have had more issues (me more than him) in less than a quarter of that car's mileage than he EVER had on it, in 165,000 miles it had ONE warranty claim. Mine's had 8 or 9, his has had 4 or 5. Ford on the other hand is rapidly improving their quality, you hear less and less of roll out issues with new models.

Give it some time and you might see things flip the other way, its happened before.

Gotta be open to new possibilities.

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Wow, wonderfully said!!! ;) I really like the new 500 too, and I'm not speculating like some as I've driven one extensively. It's an excellent car for the money. I think Ford dealers would have been firebombed if they built a $60k-$73k luxo car that had a transmission recall, but it was merely glossed over with Lexus's LS line.

There will never be a perfect car. I’m not saying Toyota is perfect. Of course in any mass production business, there will always be something.

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How can you write something like that and continue to run Ford straight in to the ground? In my mind (and from the above quote, yours too.), getting a reliable car is akin to placing a bet on your favorite roulette number/color. Your odds maybe better with one mark over another, but odds are never a sure thing regardless of the make.

The test will be whether or not they can maintain their levels of quality with the new volume and moving more and more factories to North America. We've already seen reductions in product quality.

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I don't think they will. IMO, Toyota is running on fumes, and the fume is their well established reputation. I find that they are a lax in their quality now days, and I guess they can be since everyone thinks that they are hands down the best cars on the road. As far as the Camry is concerned, its quality took a nose dive after the 1996 model. I have extensive experience in a friend's '95 Camry LE V6 as I do in a friends '02 Camry LE. You wouldn't believe that they are both Toyotas...the '02's plastics are generously rated as average in my book. The plastics are not leaps and bounds over a comparable Ford. I remember reading about a Motor Trend 1 year update on an '02ish Camry. They mentioned it was leaking oil with just 20k miles on it. Some how it was ok though since it's a "Camry." I could imagine what they would have done if a new Taurus was leaking oil @ 20k miles. Another friend has a '04 Corolla that he bought new. I was taken back with its buzzy powertrain and abundance of rattles. It's a shame since it's a good looking little car.

I agree, plus Ford isn't even advertizing the 500 will offer better reliability, durability and resale value compared to the Taurus.  Nor is GM making such claims for the all new Malibu as compared to the previous Malibu. And both the 500 and Malibu still offer only a 3 year, 36,000 mile powertrain warranty.  Chrysler has a longer powertrain warranty, but it's not as comprehensive as the Toyota 5 year/ 60,000 mile powertrain warranty. So it looks like business as usual at Ford, GM & Chrysler; i.e. they aren't even attempting to compete with the Japanese on reliability / durability / resale value.

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Why would they advertise improved reliability/durability/resale?? That would insinuate that their quality/dur/resale was not so hot to begin with. Sounds like a marketing disaster waiting to happen.