Porsche To Use Toyota Rx400h Technology In Cayenne

[RX400h]

The latest issue of Car & Driver has revealed that the mighty Porsche has begun talks with Toyota to acquire their hybrid technology to use in the Cayenne SUV. Apparently, the number of these gas hog SUVs on dealer's lots is rising rapidly due to the public's rising concern about fuel milage.

Car & Driver goes on to say that if fuel prices remain relatively high, Toyota's hybrid technology will "rule the world"!

In the meantime, Honda and Chrysler present variable cylinder shutdown as a way to save gas. The savings? A couple of MPG. Chrysler will also introduce a 425 HP version of the 300. Yep, just what the public needs - more power (in a sedan) at the expense of fuel economy. They just don't get it, do they?

[SW03ES]

They get that they sell a lot of cars, power is big right now, thats what buyers want. People want good gas mileage but not at the expense of power.

Nissan is going to use the Toyota hybrid system too.

[RX400h]

They get that they sell a lot of cars, power is big right now, thats what buyers want. People want good gas mileage but not at the expense of power.

Nissan is going to use the Toyota hybrid system too.

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I think our average gas milage is the same it was in the late 60s/early 70s and that's really sad. Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW have been having a horsepower war with no regard to gas milage. Unfortunately for them, sales have been way down for their SUVs, as is the case with the Big 3's large SUVs.

A coworker just recently bought an ML350 (despite my recommendation to wait for the RX400h) and now spends $60 per week (two stops for gas). That much money adds up very quickly and the funny thing is that she wouldn't have spent any more money on an RX400h, yet would have more power and at least twice the gas milage. :chairshot:

[wwest]

Counting chickens before thyey hatch!

None of us yet know if the RX400h will yeild decent fuel economy.

Take notice that Lexus has changed their RX400h marketing toward HP, not fuel economy. Touting V8 performance from the hybrid.

I for one do not believe the Toyota hybrid concept can be scaled to the weight of the RX series, let alone the 2.5 Ton Cayenne. There is only so much power that you can recover using regenerative braking, okay in city traffic, but lousey on the highway.

The RX400h was originally slated for customer deliveries, ME, early this year. Now I'll wait to be sure it isn't a pig in a poke.

[SW03ES]

How do you figure sales are way down? Sales of large SUVs are still brisk, not as brisk as they were but they're certainly not down.The fact of the matter is gas mileage just isn't a selling point in luxury vehicles, at least not on its own. Thats why Lexus is planning to sell its hybrids as the performance version. They could have gotten better mileage with less performance but they decided not to do that.

[VGR]

I think our average gas milage is the same it was in the late 60s/early 70s and that's really sad. Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW have been having a horsepower war with no regard to gas milage.

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Has anyone been to Europe or Japan lately? If so, can you tell us if the Europeans and Japanese have been buying larger and more powerful vehicles in recent years just like us Americans

have? Or is the big gas hog V8 SUV craze largely limited to America?

The only foreign country I've been to lately is Mexico. Tiny Nissan & Hyundai microcars are the rage there, but there are also more large pickups and SUV's as well.

[ColinBarber]

The majority of vehicles sold in Europe are diesel powered.

In the UK the RX300 is the best selling petrol SUV in it's class but most SUVs sold are diesel powered. Lexus are really losing out and need to get the 400h as soon as possible or find a diesel engine to use in it.

Even though your fuel prices have been rising they are way below European prices due to high taxation.

The current exchange rate makes the price even higher but at the moment a US gallon would cost about $5.86 in the UK.

[RX400h]

Counting chickens before thyey hatch!

None of us yet know if the RX400h will yeild decent fuel economy.

Take notice that Lexus has changed their RX400h marketing toward HP, not fuel economy. Touting V8 performance from the hybrid.

I for one do not believe the Toyota hybrid concept can be scaled to the weight of the RX series, let alone the 2.5 Ton Cayenne. There is only so much power that you can recover using regenerative braking, okay in city traffic, but lousey on the highway.

The RX400h was originally slated for customer deliveries, ME, early this year. Now I'll wait to be sure it isn't a pig in a poke.

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I guess you didn't see that road test in Hawaii that reported an average fuel economy of 34 MPG for the RX400h. Lexus is claiming at least 28 MPG, which is significantly higher than equally-powered X5s, ML350s, and Cayennes. If a 3000 lb Prius can average 45 MPG, then yes, it is feasible that the 4000 lb RX400h will achive 30+ MPG.

How do you figure sales are way down? Sales of large SUVs are still brisk, not as brisk as they were but they're certainly not down.The fact of the matter is gas mileage just isn't a selling point in luxury vehicles, at least not on its own. Thats why Lexus is planning to sell its hybrids as the performance version. They could have gotten better mileage with less performance but they decided not to do that.

There was an article in the San Diego paper not too long ago that listed the number of days various vehicles were sitting on dealer's lots - a good indication of how well (or poorly) each is currently selling. The H2, Suburban, Expedition, Excusion, etc all had very high numbers (60+ days), wheras the Mazda 3, Toyota Prius, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, etc were all at under 20 days or so. Locally, I have noticed that brand new SUVs with temp plates are becoming rare. Minivans and smaller SUVs are proliferating quickly.

[RX in NC]

It's an industry fact that current sales of the larger SUVs are suffering. No manufacturer will deny that these days, and that's a rarity in the vehicle sales business. For further proof, look at the incentives that currently exist on these models. Some of the incentive packages are improving almost weekly in an effort to move the unsold inventory. Perceived high fuel prices, employment concerns, economic instability, and worries about rising interest rates are all taking their toll.

If you play in the options market and you know what you're doing, it's a great time to buy puts on the Big Three stocks. I've made a small fortune doing so since mid-October. But again - you must know exactly what you're doing. Buying this month's or sometimes even next month's options usually won't provide you with enough cushion to weather the time decay involved. You've got to be willing and able to approach this from a four-to-six month strategic timeframe. Otherwise you could just be rolling the dice, and gambling with options always leads to the market makers taking your head off and handing it back to you on a platter....

[SW03ES]

RX- Sales aren't growing like they were, but they're not suffering yet. Analysts still aren't sure whether the slowdown has anything to do with fuel prices or just a shift in the desire of the consumer. Sales of V8 powered sedans and wagons are up and these don't get much better mileage than SUVs in some cases. What has been seen is a decrease in SUV prices, the incentives you're talking about, but actual sales figures remain sturdy, at least for now. Personally I believe that this is the end of the big SUV craze but I don't think it neccisarily has to do with fuel prices. You know more about the fiscal end of it than I do though.

wwest- Lexus has shifted its advertisement from economy to power because thats whats more effective when marketing something to the luxury buyer. Nobody has said that the RX400h is going to sip fuel like a Prius, but even if it gets 30mpg it'll be a big improvement over the 330, with more power to boot.

[wwest]

Most luxury buyers get to that plateau by being smart and more importantly, knowledgeable. With knowledge and age comes the realization that above a certain level HP/Torque numbers are meaningless. For instance I become very leary when I see manufacturers touting 0-60MPH numbers in their advertising. That tells me that I do not fit the market demographics for their product.

Also with knowledge comes the realization that if the RX400h yeilds V8 performance with "fair" fuel economy then an RX250h with V6 performance might actually yeild excellent fuel economy. I have no complaints, really, about the get up and go of my 01 AWD RX300.

Now, on another subject.

"RX sales are no longer climbing and may very well be on the decline."

I was at a large gathering, Christmas party, last Saturday evening and I was frankly amazed at the number of people that joined into our "cars" discussion and almost all had somehow become aware that FWD vehicles and FWD biased AWD drive vehicles were not desireable.

Many had detailed reasons, but most had simply picked up information from friends and the media.

Now remember that this is the Pacific NW, where these things just might be more important that other places in the US, and don't forget that we are a "bellweather" state also.

With the RX400h only having 30Hp at the rear and 270Hp at the front there will be no arguing that it isn't front torque biased!

[SW03ES]

Most luxury buyers get to that plateau by being smart and more importantly, knowledgeable. With knowledge and age comes the realization that above a certain level HP/Torque numbers are meaningless. For instance I become very leary when I see manufacturers touting 0-60MPH numbers in their advertising. That tells me that I do not fit the market demographics for their product.

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Then why are all luxury carmakers pushing the HP envelopes on their cars?

[ColinBarber]

With the RX400h only having 30Hp at the rear and 270Hp at the front there will be no arguing that it isn't front torque biased!

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It is indeed biased to the front, however the rear motor is 50kW (67hp) not 30hp and has high torque.

[RX400h]

With the RX400h only having 30Hp at the rear and 270Hp at the front there will be no arguing that it isn't front torque biased!

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It is indeed biased to the front, however the rear motor is 50kW (67hp) not 30hp and has high torque.

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Correct! In fact, both front and rear motors develope maximum torque at 0 rpm, which is much, much more usable to most drivers in day-to-day driving.

[mojosusa]

"With the RX400h only having 30Hp at the rear and 270Hp at the front there will be no arguing that it isn't front torque biased!"

Just a question. If the 400h starts off the line with its electric motors (similar to the Prius), how much bias will there be between the front and rear electric motors? Does anyone know at what speed the gas motor picks up?

Thanks.

[wwest]

Do you suppose that if wheelspin is detected at the front at initial start from a full stop the ICE will not be used regardless of throttle position?

Much easier to modulate, limit, the torque delivery of an electric motor.

[Unlisted]

the gas engine kicks on when the car is started and will kick in at 30mph. if you step on the gas heavily you will incorporate the gas engine immediately as well. so depending on your driving style you should get at the very least get the same local as hi way miles and at best could get upwards to 40 mpg. could you take a trip to florida with the cruise control set at 29 mph and not use gas? no lexus is going to market this more to being enviromentally friendlier with the convencience of having to fill up less

[SW03ES]

40mph ;)

That depends on the acceleration demand, load, etc though.

[HRP]

In the meantime, Honda and Chrysler present variable cylinder shutdown as a way to save gas. The savings? A couple of MPG. Chrysler will also introduce a 425 HP version of the 300. Yep, just what the public needs - more power (in a sedan) at the expense of fuel economy. They just don't get it, do they?

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Didn't GM try that in the Cadillac as a V-4-6-8 sometime back and it flopped?

[SW03ES]

Yeah but supposedly they have new technology nowadays that will make it more effective.

I still see it as a gimmick more than anything else though.