Why Did You Choose The Es?

[SKperformance]

i think he is just showing his ignorance and i am enjoying being schooled by the other toyota heads on historical engineering.

This thread has lots of real world info that is very goood for comparisions

vtech makes points but with little to back it up beside some test data and his unbiased opinion which is fine as any person who is looking at either an acura or lexus can use as information breakdown over reliability and performance.

I guess vtec doesn;t realise a supra engine is made with low hp and trq #'s but the engine needs no internal mods to get well over 500 hp and still be street legal, but that is what a forum is about ,learning and debating, not all honda/acura owners are stubborn or hardheaded to belive one thing over another is the best always hands down there is never or was going to be another.

I drive a honda as well but it is my beater!

lmao

0-60 is a short time to live but after the runs who can still drive their car home ?

[steviej]

sk, I am in total agreement with you. Discussions like these are informative and healthy....if they are kept factful and peaceful.

I do find exception with one little point:

one of vtech's post was a tad rude. I have censored it. I don't want to allow any "raising of the bar" as to how rude member can be before it goes un-noticed.

Should vtech continue on that path of rude and insulting comments then I shall have no choice but to invoke the warning system on him.

steviej

[NeiLtYmE]

i like this thread.

[Senna4ever]

Vtechbrain

Hmph, I opened this thread in a somewhat petulant mood, but I shall try to be somewhat diplomatic...

*Begin rant*

Vtechbrain, please read my posts properly! I was never raggin' on Hondas! If you read my previous 4 posts, I think you will find that I am a Honda lover! Why do you think I kept my 1989 Legend coupe LS for 14 years? I bought her in 1989 because Ayrton Senna & Alain Prost won 15 out of 16 races in 1988 with their McLaren-Hondas! Senna would have won the Italian GP and made it 16 if it wasn't for that bonehead rookie Jean-Louis Schlesser taking him out.

I bought her because the Legend V6 was, in essence half of an F1 Honda V12 detuned for streetability, and was also developed in part by Senna himself. All subseqent Honda V6's have their roots in this engine. I also chose the colour white, as Japan's national racing colour is white.

Dude, I am an Ayrton Senna da Silva fanatic, so don't go lecturing me on the late, great Brazilian....

I am also a Honda enthusiast, so don't patronize me regarding Honda cars. I am a member and frequent participant in various Honda forums. Do you know the difference between the B, D, H or K series engines? Which ones rotate clockwise and which ones rotate counter-clockwise? The differences between the H22 and an H22a? What is a DC5, or a CD7?

But, I digress. My point was that you keep thinking that I do not like Hondas....simply not true. My Legend was the most fun to drive car I have ever owned. Please refer to my earlier post listing what my Legend had vs. what my current ES300 has.

I'll bet your TL doesn't come with the features the Legend had. In fact, I know, because I spent an entire afternoon test driving a 2003 TL Type-S and a 2004 TL. The reason I bought my ES300 vs. the 2002 TL Type-S was the tranny issues I had heard about, and now Honda is recalling all cars equipped with a V6 mated to their 5sp auto. My friend's TL had his tranny die just past the 70,000km (48,000mi) mark. The TL's are immensely fun to drive, and are very powerful. I plan to get a TL in 2005, once most of the bugs have been worked out. On the other hand, my ES is beginning to grow on me, so who knows which way I will go?

Senna you cant get around the fact that the the honda v6 has a higher output than the toyota v8, sorry you have such sour grapes. Yes the lexus has more torque but so does a GMC pickuptruck diesel, as far as I know people dont use their luxury cars to pull tree stumps.

What do you mean I can't "get around the fact that the Honda V6 has a higher output than the Toyota V8?" What gave you that impression? What sour grapes? I posted those figures FYI. Of course I don't pull tree stumps on a daily basis, but torque makes all the difference in drivability. Honda engines have a history of making max power at relatively high revs. This is fine, but I don't enjoy revving the hell out of an engine in everyday stop & go traffic just to keep up. <----this is true in the smaller I4's. The V6's are great, but even so, the torque figures are relatively low, too. Honda does not have an engine that has more torque (lbs/ft) than hp, except the CRV engine (160hp, 161lbs/ft). The Toyota V6's have a generous amount of torque compared to hp.

Consider the Corvette. In 6th gear, it can cruise @ 60mph with the engine turning @ 1500rpm! The motor has enough torque to do it. Try doing that in any other car.

As far as reliabilty of the AWD system its a derivative of the MDX system which to date has been bullet proof.

Ok, I agree with you here, but even you have to admit it is a complex system with many moving parts that can potentially break.

Nissan VQ engines although almost as powerful as hondas are eons below in refinement.

Really? The VQ engines have won numerous awards for drivability and tractability. I test drove a G35 coupe, and it is a hell of a car. Interior has a bit of a cheap feel to it, though. Go drive one, I doubt you will be dissapointed. I never said the BMW I6 and Nissan VQ's were better. I threw them out on the table for comparison purposes.

BMW' in line sixes are all less powerful than Hondas except for the M series engine which are race not passenger vehicle motors.

What? The M3/M5 engines are not racing engines. They have beem massaged by M Division, but retain full street credentials. Again, back up, or be prepared to back up statements with known facts. Yes the BMW i6's are less powerfull relative to displacement, but the BMW I6's are smoother and more balanced than the Honda V6. Why? Inline 6 engines, not just BMW, but all inline 6's are inherently balanced, and have less vibration...no need for counter-rotating balance shafts.

What if honda decided to put one of their racing engines in a passenger cars (800 HP v8's anyone)?

*sigh* A racing Indy V8 or F1 V10 would blow up after 500 miles. NOT a valid argument. Nevermind that you'd need to keep it in it's powerband to make it even remotely drivable. About 10,300rpm for the Indy V8 and about 18,000rpm for the F1 V10. 800hp V8 racing engine in a passenger car? Pshhhh... In 1988 Callaway made the Sledgehammer Corvette with 880hp, 772lbs/ft with a 255 mph top speed. Fully street legal with Chevy warranty.

Yes Acura only exists in Canada and US but who cares as far as I know I or you dont live in England or Japan. Acura came into being in america BEFORE lexus.

Your point? You said that Acura was the first Japanese luxury brand, which is true in a sense, but there were Japanese cars that were way above the Legend's price point preceeding Acura's introduction. Lexus and Infiniti came in to compete at a higher level than Acura. Are you saying that because Acura was introduced first it is better?

If my Acura wore a Honda badge the ES 300 would sill be licking the ground behind it !!! I personally couldn't care less for which symbol sits on the hood, if I really wanted to I could had bought any hood ornament in the market.

Huh????

There is simply no denying that Honda is the premier engine maker in the world

What do you mean by 'premier'? What makes Honda the 'best'? What criteria are you using to arrive at this conclusion? I'm not saying that they're not, but I am curious as to how/why you think this is so.

Vtechbrain, do you speak from experience, or are you one of those MAGAZINE BENCH RACERS who keep spouting off like they're the f*****g engineers behind these cars? I speak (write) from personal experience, not what I read in an automobile magazine.

*End rant*

PS....why "Vtechbrain" instead of "VTECbrain"? If you are such a Honda fan, you should at least know that "Vtech" is wrong....it's VTEC!!! Sheesh. As I said before, 'Vtech' is a manufacturer of cheap telecommunications equipment.

VTEC stands for: Variable valve Timing and Electronic lift Control. Now, tell me, Mr. Vtech: where is the letter "H"?

LOC members: Sorry for the long (well, actually short by Shakespearean stanfards!) soliloquy...I feel better now.

Edited August 5, 2004 by Senna4ever

[Senna4ever]

I am sorry to hear ,as i am a great fan of the late Arton Senna which i still haev the special edition time magazine of him after the crash in september of 97 i think.

He died at the San Marino Grand Prix on May 1st, 1994. :(

Steviej: Why did you censor the post? I thought America was the land of free speech?

[amf1932]

Honda engines have a history of making max power at relatively high revs. This is fine, but I don't enjoy revving the hell out of an engine in everyday stop & go traffic just to keep up.

I agree with this statement completely, and that's the reason I traded in my '94 Acura Integra GSR VTEC for a '94 ES! Besides, my wife hated the sound of this screaming engine whenever I needed to apply this power in certain driving conditions. ;)

[jweiss]

I agree with those posts that suggest that we're learning lots of useful info on this thread. I am generally not in favour of censorship, but I felt that the occasional flame was changing the tone of the discussion. The occasional censure also reminds people of appropriate netiquette.

I too have experience with Honda, and i would never trash their abilities. As a matter of fact, I bought my 2000 ES instead of a 2003 Accord for comfort reasons, since Iwas totally uncomfortable with design of the center console, which doesn't allow for enough space for my right leg.

We all have to compromise in many things in life, with cars no exception unless you have unlimited funds for many cars.

Keep up the useful posts.

[Nunyabiz]

I will still put my old 27 year old Porsche flat 6 up against ANY 6 banger on the road.

3.6L dyno'd 449Hp @5700rpm(96octane)~430fpt 0-60~3.9sec (with me driving) taken to track 3X back in 1990 right after I had it rebuilt (which was day after I bought it) pulled 12.2/115 1/4mile.

That is V10 viper competition which I beat btw by 2/10ths B)

Bought the car ($14K) with 142K miles on the 3.3L was still running decent but slightly tired put $1K a month into it for 6 months, so for 20K I had a virtually brand new rocketship with a 3.6L, K27 Hybrid hiflow Turbo 1.0 bar of boost, 964Cams, 8.0:1 compression, 3.2 Carrera intake, ported polished, 55lb injectors, full bay 800ci intercooler, Borla exhaust, few other odds N ends.

I could have just as easily bumped the Hp to over 575hp If I wanted to do away with my AC put in a different flywheel couple other odds N ends.

But I gotta have my AC and right now the car has little over 88,000 miles and running strong as an Ox get between 18-22mpg, I haven't done a thing to the car since 1990 but brakes and tires and oil changes. Very reliable

This 3.6L is really nothing but an typeII upgrade from the older 4th gen engine to basically a 7th gen. Giving my 1977 Turbo 1990+ power.

Porsche> Honda Vtec any day of the week, not even in the same league.

The new TL is about comparable to the Mazda RX8. From what Iv seen the Nissan 350Z pretty easily beats any Honda Vtec.

If im not mistaken the times you listed for that TL is only for the "A-Spec" version which I believe is $5200 more tacked on, somewhere around $40,000+ that's pretty ridiculous, be much better off getting a Lexus and plop a Turbo on it for about the same price and walk all over that Acura PLUS be driving in quieter better built car to boot.

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_...hree/index.html

As far as AWD, Porsche still beats anything on the road. Of course you will pay out your nose for a C4 Porsche though, or the new 450Hp Chyenne SUV.

Here is a Lexus that will smoke any Acura/Honda on the road, few modifications of course (TwinTurbo 2jz-gte engine)

http://www.turbolexus.com/

If you dont mind some rather long download times there are some decent little homemade videos here http://www.racingflix.com/browsevideos.asp?p=5

One showing the above Lexus literally walking the dog on 2 RX7s and Viper500 on the hwy like they are standing still. (Lexus Catchup)

Nothing bad about Honda/Acura TLs or S2000 etc. Vtecs, BUT you seem to somehow think they are the fastest best made cars on the road, in that context they are not even close.

That old 1998 Toyota Supra TT would walk all over that Acura TL, you would see nothing but tail lights. :P

[steviej]

Steviej: Why did you censor the post? I thought America was the land of free speech?

I censored the post simple because even in the land of free speech, one man's freedoms end where the next man's freedoms begin.

Yes, we live in a country of free speech, but that does not release a member from the forum guideline of having to be be polite to another member.

Also, your "rant" was in no way a rant. It was highly educational, informative and extremely well worded. Thank you for the lesson.

I especially liked the part about vTech vs VTEC. I was to ask that question myself but figured I would let it go. I spend to much time trying to figure out what could each members screen name possibly mean.

********************************************************************

jweiss.......thank you, too. your comment about the lack of room for the right leg was right on the money. It jogged my memory as to another major reason I did not purchase the 03 TL-S.

Awesome post LOC members; educational and mature.

steviej

[SKperformance]

more interesting info.

I still have no idea how hp and tq #'s mean anything anyway.

A real driver knows it is about trq down low and flat ,like all bmw engines they don;t need M powered to go fast, they just are an amazing design, drive a 320i ,yah it is a 2.0L but it will smoke most 2 liters as it has the same low power all the way through not top or bottom end and cutting out halfway there. No worried about shifting points as the power is still there when you finish shifting .

[Senna4ever]

more interesting info.

I still have no idea how hp and tq #'s mean anything anyway.

A real driver knows it is about trq down low and flat ,like all bmw engines they don;t need M powered to go fast, they just are an amazing design, drive a 320i ,yah it is a 2.0L but it will smoke most 2 liters as it has the same low power all the way through not top or bottom end and cutting out halfway there. No worried about shifting points as the power is still there when you finish shifting .

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/868/

[Senna4ever]

Steviej:  Why did you censor the post?  I thought America was the land of free speech?

I censored the post simple because even in the land of free speech, one man's freedoms end where the next man's freedoms begin.

Yes, we live in a country of free speech, but that does not release a member from the forum guideline of having to be be polite to another member.

Also, your "rant" was in no way a rant. It was highly educational, informative and extremely well worded. Thank you for the lesson.

I especially liked the part about vTech vs VTEC. I was to ask that question myself but figured I would let it go. I spend to much time trying to figure out what could each members screen name possibly mean.

Oh, I see. At first it sounded to me as the stereotypical American hypocrisy where freedom is coveted, but once one is offended, it is taken away....I guess I'm just bitter I didn't get to read his post. I would have loved to have responded to whatever was written!

Thanks for the compliment.....that damn post took more than 2 hours to organize, mull over, write, proofread, & re-write! Arrrrrrr.

I am especially proud of my term, "Magazine bench racers." Hehehe.

*edit* I edited my long-winded post again! B)

[vtechbrain]

Fellas, Fellas, No the TL will not beat a ferrari or a turbo porsche or any car of that ilk. Lets stay on the subject. The point was That Toyota (at this time) does not sell any car in North America that will beat a manual transmission TL. Its just a trivial fact. The ES 300 as aother Lexuses are undoubtly great cars they just lack sporty performance. ;)

[Senna4ever]

Fellas, Fellas, No the TL will not beat a ferrari or a turbo porsche or any car of that ilk. Lets stay on the subject. The point was That Toyota (at this time) does not sell any car in North America that will beat a manual transmission TL. Its just a trivial fact. The ES 300 as aother Lexuses are undoubtly great cars they just lack sporty performance. ;)

Well, duh. Lexus was never meant to be Toyota's sports division. They have always had adequate performance. Lexus has never claimed to be sporty, except the IS300. Speed isn't everything, ya know.

So, when are you going to explain your name???

[tundra-lover]

The new Lexus GT line-up will be coming out soon to compete with other sport models. Unsure of any data released?

I like how this guy's point has narrowed down to what the Lexus can't do compared to his car-as if to look for hostility. He knows that Toyota could do it if they wanted to, and that the Lexus ES is simply a very nice comfortable daily driver (designed for an older age group)- not a five speed boy racer. He's had nothing to say about the things we've educated him on.

He claimed he was here to see if we were knocking on his loyalty- to which we have all explained our appreciation towards Honda (some still own them) in a very respectable manor. We don't need someone to explain our vehicle stats Vtech, as we know exactly what are cars can do and knew it before we bought them. So what is your objective exactly??

[SW03ES]

The ES 300 is in the Buick spectrum of the automotive market while the TL is in the BMW camp.

I've driven both, the TL is nice but its not even close to as good a drivers car as a BMW. If you think it is then you're kidding yourself. I think Acura CAN make a great handling car, but the TL is not one by the very nature of it being FWD.

[NeiLtYmE]

i drove the TL around today. Nice car indeed. these cars are in a different class, No comparison ..Peroid.

For the record, id rather drive an Audi A6

[SKperformance]

S8 super rare and ulta fast with luxury

[NeiLtYmE]

Even Better.

[Lex3486]

Know what I'd rather have? A 1993 black ES300 BASE model-cloth interior, no sunroof, no heated seats, nothin! With a nice set of tires and a good stereo. Know what else I'd like to have? A 1992 Garnet pearl (red) SC300 with ALL the options-memory seats, upgraded factory stereo (12 disc, 10" sub, 170 watts), sunroof. Oh wait! I do have those (it's not neccesarily always having what you want guys...it's wanting what you have) B)

[SW03ES]

I looked at the A6 before I got my ES. Beautiful car with a beautiful interior but I just couldn't get excited about the interior or about Audi reliability. The new A6 looks more appealing though.

[steviej]

Interestingly enough, on my plane flight back from MN today, I was reading the latest issue of Car & Driver or Road & Track or Motor Trend (I really forget which actual mag it was).

There was a short write up on the 2004 TL, one of those long term look backs, and they stated the 2004 TL was acutaully redesigned and re-engineered by Acura to compete with the IS, not the ES.

steviej

[SW03ES]

Which makes sense...

[NeiLtYmE]

quite the competition.

But they still dont come close. In a different league still.

[Senna4ever]

I would choose the TL over an IS300. The IS300 interior looks too cheap, and the car is a bit too small if one has a family. They are both a blast to drive, but for purists, the RWD platform of the IS300 would be better, IMO.