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#1 nc211

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 12:23 PM

well fellas, went to the store today, came back out, and a pond of coolant was dripping out of the car. So I came home, popped the hood because I thought it was the thermostat again. I did see the little bypass hoses had slipped back from it's seat a very slight bit, but it wasn't that wet up there. I did fixed that. Cleaned up the engine from any fluids, then let the car get to normal temp again. I sat, and sat, and sat looking for the leak. No leak....then I turn the car off, have it facing down hill, and look....and....coolant is coming out of the engine, right at the waterpump section of the engine. Question, when they do the 90k service, don't they replace the seal? Isn't it required? I assume it's the water pump, as it's the lowest pulley on the engine. Damn it damn it damn it damn it :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot:

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#2 wandawoods

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 01:13 PM

well, water pump really doesn't use seal nor gasket. instead, it use sealant:
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so, if the water pump was replaced at 90k service, the mech would have to scrap off the old sealant and applied new layer. do you know for a fact that the water pump was replaced on yours?

the leak could also be coming from bad o-ring at water bypass pipe or water inlet pipe which are right above water pump.

basically, you are looking at the labor cost of timing belt/water pump replacement job in order to correct it.

#3 nc211

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 01:31 PM

Here are some pictures... It's not one of the hoses, I checked all of them. The fluid is red, very red, like the tranny fluid. But why would there be tranny fluid coming out from the front part of the engine like this?? Is it possible the tranny fluid could leak from the front of the engine like that???

The coolant fluid is red as well, but about 2 years old. The tranny fluid is new.


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#4 SRK

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:14 PM

Good photos - and they show very clearly that the fluid is Toyota red coolant. That's what it looks like when it wets and dries on a surface. I would think the water pump is at fault. The front of the engine should be pulled off, and probably a new pump will fix it.
The local dealer doesn't do a water pump during a t-belt change, nor do they replace the oil seals. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think many get used to the idea of doing the pump because that's how dealers increase the profit. The service schedule doesn't advise a pump, just a belt. Certainly they are inspected, but that's it.
So you got full life out of the pump. Now you get a new one. Shouldn't be too big a deal.

#5 nc211

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:20 PM

Good photos - and they show very clearly that the fluid is Toyota red coolant. That's what it looks like when it wets and dries on a surface. I would think the water pump is at fault. The front of the engine should be pulled off, and probably a new pump will fix it.
The local dealer doesn't do a water pump during a t-belt change, nor do they replace the oil seals. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think many get used to the idea of doing the pump because that's how dealers increase the profit. The service schedule doesn't advise a pump, just a belt. Certainly they are inspected, but that's it.
So you got full life out of the pump. Now you get a new one. Shouldn't be too big a deal.



Whew....well not a big deal, except when I purchased the car 26k miles ago, it was based upon the "we owe you" the 90k service, with expressed written agreement that it include the timing belt and waterpump. I don't know man, I feel kind of bad for the dealership, they're really nice guys and gals up there. I've been a royal pain in the arse for them lately over the wobble thing. But, there is no sticker on my engine indicating the timing belt and waterpump were replaced, just a stamp in the book. We'll see what they say, it's on it's way back to them tomorrow hopefully.

Man...when does it stop? She finally rides great, but now at the cost of blowing up the engine? Geezzz, not my month.

#6 alsalih

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:22 PM

nc211, sealant is no longer used on the water pump installation (the original pump on my 98 didn't have it) instead Lexus is now usnig a steel sheet gasket which has a rubber inside edge that acts as the gasket. This I believe is supposed to make it easier to remove and replace the pump and you don't have to wait for sealant to cure. I personally don't like them becuse I have seen two of these gaskets leak (one being on my car). I added a light layer of sealant on mine when I replaced the pump. Based on the pictures your showing this is definitly coolant. Look at how it's drying underneath leaving a whitish residue, only coolant will do that I have not seen ATF fluid dry this way plus it's coming from your water pump leak inspection hole. I hate to say this but your looking at another water pump job. Make sure you have them add a coat of sealant in addition to the gasket this time believe me it's cheap insurance.

#7 SRK

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:26 PM

If they are willing to honour the original committment to replace the belt and pump, great. If not, it's regular repairs that everyone goes through. But I do understand the frustration with all the other stuff.
I am now waiting for Monday noon to hear what my dealer says is wrong with the GS. I don't like check engine lights, but it may just be a TPS and if the car is fixed and back to its old self, I will pay gladly to have that again.
With a new pump and belt, you'll have a great car again too!

#8 nc211

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:02 PM

We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it. Doesn't that sound a little premature to have to replace it again??? Especially being a Toyota product? I'm not saying it wasn't done, I'm not throwing fingers around here, but you have to admit, it sure does make more sense that a waterpump would fail at 110k miles & 11 years, than at 26k miles & 19 months. I'm starting to get the feeling the timing belt wasn't replaced either. But not going to make accusations either. If indeed this is the new water pump, then I would think Lexus would pony up on at least some of the repair bill, wouldn't you guys think so? I mean my $69 Walmart lawnmower still has the original oil in it from day one, nearly 3 years ago, and it works like a champ!

Edit: Is that the actual water pump I've got circled? Is that the outside housing of it, like the back of the one wandawoods posted up earlier?

Edit #2: Is there a serial number that is easily visable on the waterpump that one can see to check to see what the manufactored date was for that part?

#9 wandawoods

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:25 PM

We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it....

SRK is correct that if you sent your car for timing belt change, dealers don't really change water pump/pulley/idler volunteerly unless you tell them to! I guess it's because dealers can charge you the labor mulitple times to replace each component by it's own.

if your dealer is willing to replace water bump and timing belt at this point, you definately insist on the whole 9 yards: idler, pulley, CAM/Crank seals. even if they don't, you still want to spend your own dollars to do these multiple things by one shot. you don't really want to pay for the same labor cost again for just one failed CAM seal!

#10 dcfish

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:29 PM

We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it. Doesn't that sound a little premature to have to replace it again??? Especially being a Toyota product? I'm not saying it wasn't done, I'm not throwing fingers around here, but you have to admit, it sure does make more sense that a waterpump would fail at 110k miles & 11 years, than at 26k miles & 19 months. I'm starting to get the feeling the timing belt wasn't replaced either. But not going to make accusations either. If indeed this is the new water pump, then I would think Lexus would pony up on at least some of the repair bill, wouldn't you guys think so? I mean my $69 Walmart lawnmower still has the original oil in it from day one, nearly 3 years ago, and it works like a champ!

Edit: Is that the actual water pump I've got circled? Is that the outside housing of it, like the back of the one wandawoods posted up earlier?

Edit #2: Is there a serial number that is easily visable on the waterpump that one can see to check to see what the manufactored date was for that part?

If the pump was replaced ? The pump would be fine. It looks like the gasket/seal job went south. I am under the impression when the pump fails it is due to the impellers being worn to the point that they don't move coolant as they should causing overheating. I may be wrong ?


We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it....

SRK is correct that if you sent your car for timing belt change, dealers don't really change water pump/pulley/idler volunteerly unless you tell them to! I guess it's because dealers can charge you the labor mulitple times to replace each component by it's own.

if your dealer is willing to replace water bump and timing belt at this point, you definately insist on the whole 9 yards: idler, pulley, CAM/Crank seals. even if they don't, you still want to spend your own dollars to do these multiple things by one shot. you don't really want to pay for the same labor cost again for just one failed CAM seal!

Wanda, I totally agree with you on this  :cheers:

#11 SRK

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 06:06 PM

As much as that is low mileage for a pump to fail, my GS400 got a new pump at 20k under warranty according to the records. The average may be longer, but they are mechanical items and sometimes they fail early.
Pumps normally fail because the bearings supporting the impeller shaft go bad, and the excessive play then knocks the seal out. Sometimes the seal fails all by itself. In the old days they could be rebuilt by the mechanic, but now they just replace them with new.
If you can be there when the engine is opened up you will see very quickly if the pump is only a couple of years old, compared to an original. It is possible they claimed to have replaced the parts and did not. And you are wise to tread very carefully on that issue in order to maintain some goodwill on their part.

#12 RFeldes

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 06:42 PM

Sorry to hear that..Hamma..It will work out ;)

#13 Arkansawyer

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 07:36 PM

Something else that we haven't hit upon that may be a contributor here, is the fan clutch. Common practice when replacing the waterpump to also replace the fan clutch. It can put a load on the shaft which can cause the bearings to go out.

Signs that the clutch is out can vary. I've seen them lock up perm. which causes the loud airplane roar. I've seen them just go "limp" and not do anything but just spin freely. If you drive your car for any distance and then stop the engine get out and try to spin the fan. There should be some resistance as the heat from the engine should cause the fan to become harder to turn this is the "clutching" as the fluid heats up.

Mine spins freely 100% of the time. I've driven an hour to home from the office and there is literally no change in the resistance. Another telltale sign is oil residue on the shaft where the coupling fluid has leaked out from the seal going bad. Which mine also has.

All that said I will probably just remove mine as others that I've read have done.

#14 nc211

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 09:02 PM

Not to say that I don't agree with you SRK on the probability of the water pump going out that fast, but as you said, it was replaced under warranty. I'm hoping for the same result, either for a defective part, or for the fact that it was not replaced at all. I must admit, if the waterpump goes out every 20-30k miles now, then there is a design flaw somewhere, wouldn't you agree??
I have the original "we owe" ticket from when I purchased the car. It says "we owe you a 90k service, to include a new timing belt and water pump." I also have the invoice siting that the waterpump, thermostat, water inlet gasket and about 15 other items were replaced. However, one of the items that it says they replaced was air refiner element "877139-YZZ02". I believe this is the in cabin air filter in the glove box. I can assure everyone that it was indeed not replaced, not even cleaned. I found this out right from the get-go when I realized I had a car with the bad engine computer and went snoopin' around in there. I pulled that filter, and it was dirty, very dirty.

I don't know man, I just don't know. I'm not too happy right now with this thing. Yet another several hundred dollar bill coming my way on this car. We'll see what they say. If they say it's a full retail repair bill, then I'm screwed.

It also says "Idler S/A, Timing Belt, part # 13503-0F010" I can't find that part number anywhere, and what does "S/A" mean?? Did they replace it, or did they just inspect it??

#15 maxed_out

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 09:10 PM

hey nc I think s/a is self adjusting...I think that pulley has got a spring and some kind of self adjuster.

my h20 pump leaked and it was a stinker of a project. I did the timing belt and all those pulleys. my pulleys were sounding tired too. seems like they all fail at the same time.

always a new day tommorrow.

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