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nc211

Water Pump Leaking

31 posts in this topic

well fellas, went to the store today, came back out, and a pond of coolant was dripping out of the car. So I came home, popped the hood because I thought it was the thermostat again. I did see the little bypass hoses had slipped back from it's seat a very slight bit, but it wasn't that wet up there. I did fixed that. Cleaned up the engine from any fluids, then let the car get to normal temp again. I sat, and sat, and sat looking for the leak. No leak....then I turn the car off, have it facing down hill, and look....and....coolant is coming out of the engine, right at the waterpump section of the engine. Question, when they do the 90k service, don't they replace the seal? Isn't it required? I assume it's the water pump, as it's the lowest pulley on the engine. Damn it damn it damn it damn it :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot:

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well, water pump really doesn't use seal nor gasket. instead, it use sealant:

timingbelt36.jpg

so, if the water pump was replaced at 90k service, the mech would have to scrap off the old sealant and applied new layer. do you know for a fact that the water pump was replaced on yours?

the leak could also be coming from bad o-ring at water bypass pipe or water inlet pipe which are right above water pump.

basically, you are looking at the labor cost of timing belt/water pump replacement job in order to correct it.

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Here are some pictures... It's not one of the hoses, I checked all of them. The fluid is red, very red, like the tranny fluid. But why would there be tranny fluid coming out from the front part of the engine like this?? Is it possible the tranny fluid could leak from the front of the engine like that???

The coolant fluid is red as well, but about 2 years old. The tranny fluid is new.

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Good photos - and they show very clearly that the fluid is Toyota red coolant. That's what it looks like when it wets and dries on a surface. I would think the water pump is at fault. The front of the engine should be pulled off, and probably a new pump will fix it.

The local dealer doesn't do a water pump during a t-belt change, nor do they replace the oil seals. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think many get used to the idea of doing the pump because that's how dealers increase the profit. The service schedule doesn't advise a pump, just a belt. Certainly they are inspected, but that's it.

So you got full life out of the pump. Now you get a new one. Shouldn't be too big a deal.

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Good photos - and they show very clearly that the fluid is Toyota red coolant. That's what it looks like when it wets and dries on a surface. I would think the water pump is at fault. The front of the engine should be pulled off, and probably a new pump will fix it.

The local dealer doesn't do a water pump during a t-belt change, nor do they replace the oil seals. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think many get used to the idea of doing the pump because that's how dealers increase the profit. The service schedule doesn't advise a pump, just a belt. Certainly they are inspected, but that's it.

So you got full life out of the pump. Now you get a new one. Shouldn't be too big a deal.

Whew....well not a big deal, except when I purchased the car 26k miles ago, it was based upon the "we owe you" the 90k service, with expressed written agreement that it include the timing belt and waterpump. I don't know man, I feel kind of bad for the dealership, they're really nice guys and gals up there. I've been a royal pain in the !Removed! for them lately over the wobble thing. But, there is no sticker on my engine indicating the timing belt and waterpump were replaced, just a stamp in the book. We'll see what they say, it's on it's way back to them tomorrow hopefully.

Man...when does it stop? She finally rides great, but now at the cost of blowing up the engine? Geezzz, not my month.

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nc211, sealant is no longer used on the water pump installation (the original pump on my 98 didn't have it) instead Lexus is now usnig a steel sheet gasket which has a rubber inside edge that acts as the gasket. This I believe is supposed to make it easier to remove and replace the pump and you don't have to wait for sealant to cure. I personally don't like them becuse I have seen two of these gaskets leak (one being on my car). I added a light layer of sealant on mine when I replaced the pump. Based on the pictures your showing this is definitly coolant. Look at how it's drying underneath leaving a whitish residue, only coolant will do that I have not seen ATF fluid dry this way plus it's coming from your water pump leak inspection hole. I hate to say this but your looking at another water pump job. Make sure you have them add a coat of sealant in addition to the gasket this time believe me it's cheap insurance.

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If they are willing to honour the original committment to replace the belt and pump, great. If not, it's regular repairs that everyone goes through. But I do understand the frustration with all the other stuff.

I am now waiting for Monday noon to hear what my dealer says is wrong with the GS. I don't like check engine lights, but it may just be a TPS and if the car is fixed and back to its old self, I will pay gladly to have that again.

With a new pump and belt, you'll have a great car again too!

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We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it. Doesn't that sound a little premature to have to replace it again??? Especially being a Toyota product? I'm not saying it wasn't done, I'm not throwing fingers around here, but you have to admit, it sure does make more sense that a waterpump would fail at 110k miles & 11 years, than at 26k miles & 19 months. I'm starting to get the feeling the timing belt wasn't replaced either. But not going to make accusations either. If indeed this is the new water pump, then I would think Lexus would pony up on at least some of the repair bill, wouldn't you guys think so? I mean my $69 Walmart lawnmower still has the original oil in it from day one, nearly 3 years ago, and it works like a champ!

Edit: Is that the actual water pump I've got circled? Is that the outside housing of it, like the back of the one wandawoods posted up earlier?

Edit #2: Is there a serial number that is easily visable on the waterpump that one can see to check to see what the manufactored date was for that part?

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We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it....

SRK is correct that if you sent your car for timing belt change, dealers don't really change water pump/pulley/idler volunteerly unless you tell them to! I guess it's because dealers can charge you the labor mulitple times to replace each component by it's own.

if your dealer is willing to replace water bump and timing belt at this point, you definately insist on the whole 9 yards: idler, pulley, CAM/Crank seals. even if they don't, you still want to spend your own dollars to do these multiple things by one shot. you don't really want to pay for the same labor cost again for just one failed CAM seal!

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We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it. Doesn't that sound a little premature to have to replace it again??? Especially being a Toyota product? I'm not saying it wasn't done, I'm not throwing fingers around here, but you have to admit, it sure does make more sense that a waterpump would fail at 110k miles & 11 years, than at 26k miles & 19 months. I'm starting to get the feeling the timing belt wasn't replaced either. But not going to make accusations either. If indeed this is the new water pump, then I would think Lexus would pony up on at least some of the repair bill, wouldn't you guys think so? I mean my $69 Walmart lawnmower still has the original oil in it from day one, nearly 3 years ago, and it works like a champ!

Edit: Is that the actual water pump I've got circled? Is that the outside housing of it, like the back of the one wandawoods posted up earlier?

Edit #2: Is there a serial number that is easily visable on the waterpump that one can see to check to see what the manufactored date was for that part?

If the pump was replaced ? The pump would be fine. It looks like the gasket/seal job went south. I am under the impression when the pump fails it is due to the impellers being worn to the point that they don't move coolant as they should causing overheating. I may be wrong ?

We'll see what they say. My concern is that since the job and the parts were on their dime when I purchased the car, that it was not done, since there is no sticker, and the water pump should only be 19 months old with 26k miles on it....

SRK is correct that if you sent your car for timing belt change, dealers don't really change water pump/pulley/idler volunteerly unless you tell them to! I guess it's because dealers can charge you the labor mulitple times to replace each component by it's own.

if your dealer is willing to replace water bump and timing belt at this point, you definately insist on the whole 9 yards: idler, pulley, CAM/Crank seals. even if they don't, you still want to spend your own dollars to do these multiple things by one shot. you don't really want to pay for the same labor cost again for just one failed CAM seal!

Wanda, I totally agree with you on this :cheers:

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As much as that is low mileage for a pump to fail, my GS400 got a new pump at 20k under warranty according to the records. The average may be longer, but they are mechanical items and sometimes they fail early.

Pumps normally fail because the bearings supporting the impeller shaft go bad, and the excessive play then knocks the seal out. Sometimes the seal fails all by itself. In the old days they could be rebuilt by the mechanic, but now they just replace them with new.

If you can be there when the engine is opened up you will see very quickly if the pump is only a couple of years old, compared to an original. It is possible they claimed to have replaced the parts and did not. And you are wise to tread very carefully on that issue in order to maintain some goodwill on their part.

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Sorry to hear that..Hamma..It will work out ;)

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Something else that we haven't hit upon that may be a contributor here, is the fan clutch. Common practice when replacing the waterpump to also replace the fan clutch. It can put a load on the shaft which can cause the bearings to go out.

Signs that the clutch is out can vary. I've seen them lock up perm. which causes the loud airplane roar. I've seen them just go "limp" and not do anything but just spin freely. If you drive your car for any distance and then stop the engine get out and try to spin the fan. There should be some resistance as the heat from the engine should cause the fan to become harder to turn this is the "clutching" as the fluid heats up.

Mine spins freely 100% of the time. I've driven an hour to home from the office and there is literally no change in the resistance. Another telltale sign is oil residue on the shaft where the coupling fluid has leaked out from the seal going bad. Which mine also has.

All that said I will probably just remove mine as others that I've read have done.

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Not to say that I don't agree with you SRK on the probability of the water pump going out that fast, but as you said, it was replaced under warranty. I'm hoping for the same result, either for a defective part, or for the fact that it was not replaced at all. I must admit, if the waterpump goes out every 20-30k miles now, then there is a design flaw somewhere, wouldn't you agree??

I have the original "we owe" ticket from when I purchased the car. It says "we owe you a 90k service, to include a new timing belt and water pump." I also have the invoice siting that the waterpump, thermostat, water inlet gasket and about 15 other items were replaced. However, one of the items that it says they replaced was air refiner element "877139-YZZ02". I believe this is the in cabin air filter in the glove box. I can assure everyone that it was indeed not replaced, not even cleaned. I found this out right from the get-go when I realized I had a car with the bad engine computer and went snoopin' around in there. I pulled that filter, and it was dirty, very dirty.

I don't know man, I just don't know. I'm not too happy right now with this thing. Yet another several hundred dollar bill coming my way on this car. We'll see what they say. If they say it's a full retail repair bill, then I'm screwed.

It also says "Idler S/A, Timing Belt, part # 13503-0F010" I can't find that part number anywhere, and what does "S/A" mean?? Did they replace it, or did they just inspect it??

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hey nc I think s/a is self adjusting...I think that pulley has got a spring and some kind of self adjuster.

my h20 pump leaked and it was a stinker of a project. I did the timing belt and all those pulleys. my pulleys were sounding tired too. seems like they all fail at the same time.

always a new day tommorrow.

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From a couple websites that I googled.

FAILURE PROFILES

Leaking shaft seals, which are the most common water pump failure, usually reveal themselves by leaving a coolant stain around the vent area. Shaft seal leaks can be difficult to diagnose because they can be intermittently temperature and pressure sensitive, and can be aggravated by rust and other particulate contamination in the system.

Shaft seal leaks can often be diagnosed by using a cooling system pressure tester to pressurize the cooling system. In most cases, however, a visual inspection is the most reliable method simply because most intermittent shaft seal leaks are detectable only by the traces of coolant around the vent area and surrounding parts.

Noisy shaft bearings are usually the second-most common water pump failure. Most shaft bearings fail due to normal wear in the bearing or due to the normal oxidation of lubricant on the bearing surfaces. In rare cases, bearing failure can be hastened by over-tightening conventional accessory drive belts. In many cases, a water pump bearing also fails because it supports an unbalanced fan assembly that may also have bent or misaligned blades. Water pump bearings can also fail because an amateur mechanic diluted the lubricant by washing the pump in a solvent tank!

The third and most rare water pump failure is the impeller slipping on the water pump shaft. Since the impeller and shaft is a press-fit assembly, slippage occurs most frequently on remanufactured water pumps. In other cases where a plastic impeller is used, the plastic material can degrade through sustained heat and age. In any case, slippage can be intermittent in nature and can depend greatly upon the temperature and speed of the engine.

Last, some replacement impellers can be manufactured from inferior metals that are susceptible to rust corrosion. In most of these cases, impeller blades begin to break away from the impeller due to a rust-through condition, which results in decreasing pumping capacity and an increasing presence of rust contamination in the cooling system

NOTE: The following can cause premature water pump failure: dirty or corrosive coolant or systems; defective, bent or unbalanced fan; defective or unbalanced clutch; wrong belt tension; fan shroud or radiator interference; loose or broken motor mounts; striking the bearing shaft on its end.

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You sure have alot of guys/gals Rooting for you :cheers: ...Sometimes that extra mile is a Bit$$...Go get um Hamma!!! You don't Win if you don't finish...we're with you 100%.. Damn..I've got to get off the kitty litter LOL :whistles:

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NC211, I have the same problem with leakage at the water pump. Your pictures around over ,the front of the oil pan area are exactly my problem. I've had it for over 6 months on my 94LS. and I figure that I'll have to live with it until it's too late, I guess. I'm not sure if my LS, with 110,000 miles, ever had the timing belt replaced, so I guess I'll wait for the Grand Poobah explosion, and replace the timing belt, water pump, and all the other associated stuff.

Best of Luck.

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NC211, I have the same problem with leakage at the water pump. Your pictures around over ,the front of the oil pan area are exactly my problem. I've had it for over 6 months on my 94LS. and I figure that I'll have to live with it until it's too late, I guess. I'm not sure if my LS, with 110,000 miles, ever had the timing belt replaced, so I guess I'll wait for the Grand Poobah explosion, and replace the timing belt, water pump, and all the other associated stuff.

Best of Luck.

Fredd:

Yep, except, when your timing belt goes "doink" because the water pump seized up, your engine won't "explode". It'll just stop running. nc's valves & pistons will get real cozy real quick if his timing belt goes.

nc; It sure seems as though that "new" water pump should have lasted longer than this. If you think about it though (at times like this, Johnny Walker Black helps), what choice do you have? Bite the bullet & get it replaced. It sounds "vewwy, vewwy suspicious" as to whether or not the stealer actually replaced the pump. On the other hand, it could be a seal in the (new) pump has let go prematurely. Idler S/A, Timing Belt most likely refers to the timing belt tensioner. I don't think there should be any letters in the P/N though. It seems odd that they would replace the tensioner & not the pump.

I was thinking about you/your exploits this weekend while I was taking off my "cheap aftermarket" rotors & putting my "turned" original/OEM rotors back on the car. Front end wobble (sometimes violent) under braking.....etc. I rebuilt all calipers (brain dead simple) beacuse I "think" I had a sticking piston in my front right caliper. Anyway, the front right (el cheapo) rotor measured about .015" out of round, prior to removal. Put the "turned" originals back on & life is good (so far). Does anyone know if the Akebono Pro Act Ceramics could be the root cause of the warped rotor(s)?

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NC211, I have the same problem with leakage at the water pump. Your pictures around over ,the front of the oil pan area are exactly my problem. I've had it for over 6 months on my 94LS. and I figure that I'll have to live with it until it's too late, I guess. I'm not sure if my LS, with 110,000 miles, ever had the timing belt replaced, so I guess I'll wait for the Grand Poobah explosion, and replace the timing belt, water pump, and all the other associated stuff.

Best of Luck.

Fredd:

Yep, except, when your timing belt goes "doink" because the water pump seized up, your engine won't "explode". It'll just stop running. nc's valves & pistons will get real cozy real quick if his timing belt goes.

nc; It sure seems as though that "new" water pump should have lasted longer than this. If you think about it though (at times like this, Johnny Walker Black helps), what choice do you have? Bite the bullet & get it replaced. It sounds "vewwy, vewwy suspicious" as to whether or not the stealer actually replaced the pump. On the other hand, it could be a seal in the (new) pump has let go prematurely. Idler S/A, Timing Belt most likely refers to the timing belt tensioner. I don't think there should be any letters in the P/N though. It seems odd that they would replace the tensioner & not the pump.

I was thinking about you/your exploits this weekend while I was taking off my "cheap aftermarket" rotors & putting my "turned" original/OEM rotors back on the car. Front end wobble (sometimes violent) under braking.....etc. I rebuilt all calipers (brain dead simple) beacuse I "think" I had a sticking piston in my front right caliper. Anyway, the front right (el cheapo) rotor measured about .015" out of round, prior to removal. Put the "turned" originals back on & life is good (so far). Does anyone know if the Akebono Pro Act Ceramics could be the root cause of the warped rotor(s)?

Can anybody tell me where i can find a "shrubbery"?

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I have some sample questions. As the fluid looks very reddish, It might as well coming out of the P/S system.

Is your car consuming excessive amounts of coolant? This is noted by evaporation.

Have you check the level of your P/S Pump tank? The PS system uses tranny fluid dex III for the P/S system and it looks that red.

I had the same leaks and it was the main pressure hose coming from the PS pump, it has a fitting in there that becomes burr and needs to be smooth not to leak. A water pump ussually fails after 150,000 miles in these cars as I read in the post, even as 120,000 is also aceptable.

Need to make sure the leak is not coming from the PS system. The coolant fluid even as it is red it is not as intense as the ones depicted.

Hope this helps,

C. PR

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Can anybody tell me where i can find a "shrubbery"?

forhundo;

Just look for the shiny, zinc plated, warped, cheap aftermarket rotors........all four are buried underneath it..........

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Does anyone know if the Akebono Pro Act Ceramics could be the root cause of the warped rotor(s)?

Threadcutter, I have had the akebono ceramics on my Expedition for about a year now with no issues. Also replaced the OEM rotors with the "best" Raybestos rotors. Your problem is probably in your cheap (as you put it) aftermarket rotor. When the time comes on the Lexus for rotors it will be OEM only.

Concerning the fluid that is leaking from nc211, honestly you should be able to rub it between your fingers or smell it to determine where the fluid is coming from.

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I had found a similar situation with mine and thought water pump when I saw leakage out the weep hole under the crank pulley. It turned out to be the thermostat gasket. I could tug on the upper radiator hose and get fluid to leak past the housing.

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Welp, she's at the dealership, again. Man I tell you what, I'll have driven nearly every one of their loaner cars soon! hahaha. I sent my tech advisor an email yesterday with these same pictures. They seem to think it is definetly the water pump too, and agree it should not have failed this quickly. Therefore a "good will" warranty will be put into place. I checked the p/s fluid yesterday as well, and it's fine, no loss of fluid in the cannister. I thought the same thing, as I recently flushed the system and put in the correct atf fluid, which is red like that as well. The tranny fluid too is that red. In all honesty, we can try and diagnois it all day long, but none of the hoses are leaking, the thermostat isn't leaking either "just went through that mess last month" the tranny fluid doesn't seem to be leaking, nothing that is red in color except for coolant seems to be low. The leak is coming from within the engine compartment itself, and can't be seen outside of it. The coolant that is in there now is less than two years old and under 26k miles. It was flushed and filled at the dealership when I purchased the car. So, we'll see what happens......

NC211, standing by....again. We sure these things are made in Japan and not Italy?? Fiat doesn't own any part of Toyota do they? Hahahaa

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