I'm currently looking for a second vehicle that is a bit bigger, (seats 5 people, larger storage for the golf clubs and or luggage for longer trips.) but gets good gas mileage, and offers some nice toys to play with and comfort my wallet while driving. It can be an SUV, wagon/crossover or a sedan. And I'm wanting to keep it under 50k. I'm willing to give up some luxury for better pricing, but the price has to be really lower, and I have to still like it to want to buy it. So hidious new Acura's are out.
Alright, so I went to a GM dealership over the weekend to talk pricing. Before I go any further, let me start by saying that the sleazy BS car salesman proffession is alive and well in america. I made the mistake of driving my Lexus to the first dealership. Yeah, the first 20 minutes was him just talking about my car. Once we made it into the office, he actually said, and I quote: " Our buyer took a look at your car, so we can give you $21k for yours (Mine is already appraised at $31k trade in value), with the GM discount of $4k, that brings the price of the Tahoe to $52,720 less the trade and add the amount owed on the Lexus." So then he said "So how much did you want to put down then?" I said how much are you really selling me the Tahoe for?" His answer was $52,720.00. I just looked at him, and he then says"We aren't really discounted the Hybrid. They are a hot item and everyone wants one." I just smiled and said I had to go. On my way out of course the salesmanager comes out as I'm getting into the Lexus and says wait, can we work this out?, I said No thanks, and left. So, in review, I decided to switch to the Nissan Sentra, and went to a different dealership. As the sales person walked up and unlocked the Tahoe I was looking at, he said " We have a GM discount right now of $4k, and we are matching that with "dealerdollars" to make it $8k off just so you know. I shook my ahead ok, and we looked at the Tahoe in front of me. That stupid compartment thing on the center console was broken again, so the salesperson assured me that would be fixed before I took delivery. Yeah ok, whatever. So I test drive it, and we go inside to talk. They eventually offered me $2500 for my Nissan, ( a 1998 Nissan Sentra GXE with 148K miles on it.) and take about $10k off the Tahoe, but then offer me a dumb finance rate of like 8%. So the Tahoe wound up being about $48.5k after it was said and done with tax. As I left the last ditch "please buy our Tahoe price" we can take another thousand off but that is the bottom. I left. I went to the MB dealership, and well, on a 2009 ML320 Bluetec Deisel 4matic with a PO2 luxury package, a tow hitch pkge with 4400lbs. towing, was $49.5. after haggling. But then I made the mistake of looking at a 2010 E350 while I was there also. Man is that a nice car again.

I think GM is off the table already. I do like the look of the Tahoe, but that's about it. Once you start to put it under close scrutiny it falls apart quickly. If the Hybrid Tahoe was say $35-40k max. I can see that as a justifyable price range for the Tahoe. Knowing what I'm giving up, but understanding I'm saving a significant enouph dollar amount to make it worth it.

Two cars come to mind immediately with that kind of budget. First, a fully loaded Sienna, the "Lexus" of the minivan world. Don't need to "sell" with words here, we all know it's a Toyota.

The other, is the new Ford Flex. I have no experience with one, haven't seen too many of them, never seen the inside of one in person. BUT, from what I hear from my colleuges in Southern California, they're all the rage! Fidge in the back seat, plenty of power, lots of toys, great ride, great drive, lots of room. Plus, it's a Ford, so you know you can negotiate more than with a Toyota. The danger there though, as with most American cars, is the depreciation hits. They're so new, and Ford seems to be changing and tweaking things on a yearly basis these days, there's no telling what it'll be worth in 12 months. Especially if they put in that new Eco-Boost turbo engine in it. That's what killed my 01' Maxima's value, when Nissan swapped out the 3.0 V6 for the 3.5 a year later (and the headlights).

I've driven a couple of those Buick Enclave cross-over suv's on business trips, fully loaded with 6 grown men. Was very impressed by them, and prefer them under those types of situations (especially in DC with tight traffic).

Smooth.

I like the ML and have a hard time "not buying it" vs. the Tahoe for all of the reasons that you have posted previously on the SW post. If the price was much...much better then I may look at a Yukon, or a Tahoe but when you are looking at almost the same price or even more for the Tahoe then I would say get the ML all day long. Yes they are much different SUVs but IMHO the MB is a far better SUV. I also like the X5's (obviously) and I think the new body style is great but then again to equip it close to how mine is it would be more than 60k and this is why I went preowned, so far so good. I like the GMC Acadia but by the time I would equip it the way I would want it over 44k...I am going to stay with a Lexus, BMW, or MB even if it is preowned.

I also find the GM dealers to withhold discounts until they think that they are going to loose the sale and I think that this is crazy. I have bought both my Lexus and BMW over the internet pre owned and I am sure that this is the way I will buy my next car/suv. When I got my C class I leased it and found Mercedes to even "deal" much better than GM. Give me the price on the car and stop playing games. A few years back I fell in love with a Yukon and actually would have bought one if I could have gotten the price where I wanted it...this is saying something since I have sworn I will never have another American car in my driveway. But it was...no deal. Kept telling me they could not budge on the price and it had been discounted as much as it could be. I thought that they may just be telling me this back and forth on email so I drove to two different dealers and nope...all they wanted to do is try to get me a monthly payment that I could afford! LOL, this is a crazy way to do business in my opinion I would not talk about a monthly payment...lets just see your best price... Funny thing is after I had bought the RX the salesman from GM contacted me several times with better offers until I let him know I had bought a different car. Hell by the time he was done giving me his best deal he was $1,500 less then what I would have bought the Yukon for. Stupid...how many lost sales because of this.

What is most important to you in a vehicle.

If you could build your perfect vehicle, what would it be? Do you need to tow? And if so, what? Any use for AWD functionality? Do you need/want to haul anything? How old are your kids? Do you have kids? Only looking to buy new?

If you have kids...IMHO you cannot beat a minivan. The Sienna is a great van, I personally prefer the Honda Odyssey though, although its getting a little long in the tooth. Can't go wrong with either one though.

Your desire for good gas mileage does away with any of the "traditional" SUVs like the Tahoe anyways.

If you really are against a Minivan and you want an SUV I'd stick with a crossover. This would be my list:

Luxury:
Lexus RX350
Cadillac SRX
Infiniti FX35
Mercedes ML350 (I don't think I would buy a Mercedes though.

More mainstream:
Toyota Highlander (I REALLY like the new Highlander, and you could even buy the Hybrid and be in your range.)
Ford Flex (very cool vehicle)
Toyota Venza

Ok, so I went and looked at a fully loaded Sienna Limited today. Yeah man, that was pretty nice. That thing was like my recliner at home! A few odd things I did notice like no keyless start, and manual tilt/telescopic.( yeah I know, spoiled picky.) Also still a DVD based nav., no HID's, and the orangy yellow wood trim is not my preference. Which seems to be the only color available for some odd reason. The one I looked at MSRP was $40k. With some medium density haggling, I got them to $34K. (appearently they are matching the $4k discount GM is offering, and I also noticed 10 year/100K limited warrentee stickers on all the windshields in the lot also.

So, on a whole, not a bad option at all. To be honest, I didn't consider a minivan before. And to be more honest, I have to say that my inner child is somewhat throwing a tantrum right now. I'll volley this idea of a minivan across the left and right hemispheres for bit first. LOL!!!

The toyota website shows the hid's as an "option", so maybe you can option them into the car?

Honestly, my dad bought our first minivan in 1987, a Chrystler.....we've had one in the family ever since. They're simply fantastic for families and for hauling stuff. In fact, if you have two or more kids, I'd almost have to say a Minivan is right up there with a baby seat!

I'm glad to hear someone understands my point.






It has to look good first. I'm not makin payments on a fugly looking car just cause it has an ok interior and I can afford it. I'll find another way until I can afford what I want.
It has to be able to seat up to 5 or so people. We just want a full size car or something that offers enouph space for luggage, the mother in law, etc. etc.
I don't go offroading. I've never had to scale the side of a mountian or traverse huge boulders. But things like AWD that are geared to safer road handling in severe weather conditions are attractive to me like the 4matic, or Lexus' AWD versions, and Audi etc. etc.
I want leather, and lots of bells and whistles. Nav., auto AC, great stereo system, sun/moon roof. you know, loaded.
I want good gas mileage. I don't want to be chained the gas pump. 20 mpg averages are ok. But higher is better.
I don't need to tow, but I would like to be able to if the need or desire should arise. I figure if I'm getting a big enouph car/truck then why not right?
And no, I don't have any kids. And we aren't having any, but my mother in law is getting sicker, and my aunt Ruthie in in the hospital right now. Lugging them around and the trips to Miami and back, and when you add in the rest of my family here, I just think it would be better to have a larger vehicle. Right now all we have is a Volvo S40 sedan, it has four door like the IS, but it's also small like the IS and I have the Nissan, again, small 4 door. Actually, the Nissan is even smaller. lol!
So, I'm thinking that I want to trade/sell the Nissan, get something bigger, and maybe even include sell/trading the Volvo also. The wife is open to what ever I decide, but I we both have to agree on it obviously. (I actually think she has more of an issue with a minivan than I at this point.) lol!


I was leaving the RX/ES/GS for last. I'm trying to be open minded here and really wanted to see what is out there before going to the Lexus dealership and just buying another one. lol!! And to put it forward, can I get more for less by going in another direction?
I haven't looked at an SRX yet. But it is on my list also.
The Infinity FX is way fugly and odd looking to me. The Murano's look way nicer, but I haven't given them the close look up yet either.
And why wouldn't you buy a MB? Just curious. So far, the ML is my front runner. But it's also at the budget limit. So, if I can find something I like for less, it may opt for that instead.
I really like the new Highlanders also. But we're back to Toyota's and I really want to see what else is out there first.
The Ford Flex......my Dad would love for me to be driving a Ford again. The new Taurus is on my list as well, but I haven't looked at one up close yet.

So here's my No, definately not's so far:

Chrysler/Dodge anything (I'm going to look at the new 2010 Grand Cherokee, but I have my doubts going in.)
Ford Explorer's/ Expeditions. (To fuel thirsty)
Hummers
Full size 4 door pick up trucks
Chevy Tahoe/Suburban
Chevy Equinox/Traverse

I personally like having one hatch in the family...so I personally wouldn't buy another sedan if I were you.

I'd pass on the Minivan without kids probably.



Maybe...but in getting more features for less, you may wind up compromising quality and refinement.



You should drive one. They are INSANE to drive, its like driving a sports car...thats an SUV. If I were buying one of those SUVs...the FX would be right up at the top of my list.

The styling grows on you too...The Murano is also very nice...but not as fun to drive as the FX. I totally forgot about the Murano.



I wouldn't buy an MB because of the long term reliability and repair costs. That said, I would lease an MB. It wouldn't be a vehicle I'd buy and drive for 200,000 miles like a Lexus though lets put it that way.

Have you driven the RX? The RX is a nice vehicle...and the new one has a LOT of bells and whistles.

you know,,,,,, I'm pretty open minded, so my neighbor on the corner has one. I'll stop and chat him up about it. IF it goes ok, then I'll go and test drive one.

Oh sure. The RX and the ES make up the loaner car fleet at our Lexus dealership. I would be ok with the RX, but I have a concern for how high it sits and my mother in law's ability to get in and out ok. That was the one thing extra I liked about the Sienna with the floor being so much lower.

Time for my 2 cents... I'd personally skip the minivan, I grew up in minivans and my dad still has the Pontiac (see sig) and I just can't stand them. You look like you should be pulling up to the front door of an elementary school. IMO crossovers are the best bet.

I really like the Buick Enclave, I test drove one a few months ago before I bought the RX. It was extremely nice, it was very Lexus like, quiet smooth ride but it didn't have many bells and whistles. The only reason I didn't buy it was because all the Buick dealers by me are crooks, have horrid service and I was spoiled by Lexus service with the ES.

Have you taken a look at the Audi Q5? I haven't driven an Audi before but from what I assume it would be like driving the Infiniti power wise but the Q5 has a much better styling.

Of course my first choice would be the RX. I haven't driven the 2010 yet but I'm so pleased with my 2004 that unless they stop making the RX my next (practical) car will be a RX450h.

Oh lord...one VW product in my life was enough.

VW/Audis have got to be about the most expensive vehicles to maintain out there. Super expensive diagnostic equipment makes independent repair options limited and service is very expensive for VWs....and even moreso for Audis.

I would absolutely never buy an Audi...

You're basing your car purchase on your mother in law? Just kidding...

Go with something you can wake up everyday and not say, "ugh why did i buy this??" everytime you look at it. Go with a nice looking crossover like the RX or Infiniti EX or FX, or even the new Cadillac SUV.

Will you be driving it much? Will it be a daily driver? Will you keep the IS and trade in the Nissan, or trade in the IS for it?

If it's going to be your daily driver, make it something you can live with. Going from the IS to a minivan seems like a big... change.

And the Toyota Sienna's do come with HID's as an option, along with the darker wood (i've seem them). Maybe discontinued for the 010 year, but they are in existence.

If the 010 Rx's weren't so fugly they'd be my pick. I'd look at the Infiniti EX (although rather small) or maybe a pre-owned 07-08 Rx400h

Well, last night I decided I just can't do the Sienna. Or any minivan. My wife just won't have it. So we have to add that to the definatley not list.

cduluk: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah
ahahahahahahahaahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH(BREATHE) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh......No.

This is going to be my wifes primary car, but our family bus/play mobile also. So I will be driving it once in awhile. But we both have to like and be happy with it.

I'm not basing it on her, but I am keeping her in my consideration. Along with my other family/travel needs.

Kyle Petree :
Hmmm, a Buick huh? I feel 10 years older just saying that name, but I do know that I need to break out of some of my classic "stereotype" views. So I will go and look at one of those.

Audi makes a descent car, so long as you have a full warrentee on it and a convenient dealer location to take it to. They use a self designed propriatary diagnostics systems that you can only get if you are an authorized Audi tech shop. And there are very few of those outside of the dealerships because they are really expensive scanners, and diagnotics equipment. It was Audi's attempt to keep all the work in house, and circumvent some of the ODB II systems. Not to mention that Audi has this uncanny need to reinvent the wheel over and over for some reason. And let us not forget the huge recall that is about to take place for Audi and the "Sudden death" issues they are wrestling with concerning the new transmissions. I can easily understand where SW03ES is coming from regarding Audi/ Volkswagon. It's almost hard for me to understand that the same people who are in charge and design Audi/Volkswagon also make the Porsche 911 GT3. (Which by the way, if I could afford one of those I would just get my in-laws a bus pass.) LOL!!!

Ohhh it's for your wife? that's a totally different story.

If she's gonna be the primary driver, you gotta make sure she likes it so she doesn't complain to you all the time

Bring her to the automall, show her around Lexus, Infiniti, BMW etc... I doubt she'd go on her own, most women won't

You better hope IS400 doesn't see this post, otherwise you'll be dead-man-walking!

haha, whys that

ok, I just looked at the Buick Enclave, and I don't think so. It has a nice shape to it, but the interior lighting color makes it look like I'm playing Tron from the early 80's! What is up with that minty blue/green light everywhere? It's almost like someone sat on a tube of toothpaste and it squirted all over the place. And the seats are way over stuffed! LOL!! They're like a big puff ball,,,lol!! Yeah, I think Buick is still chasing the 60+ crowd.

I don't know,,,I keep looking back at the ML 350 and it's looking nicer and nicer to me. The dealership has called me twice now, I haven't returned thier calls yet. If I could find a low mileage 08 Lexus LS 460 for under $50k my problems here would be solved. Well, atleast I would have a different set of problems in that I would take the LS and the wife would still have to find something. But then I wouldn't care what she wanted, so long as it was under our agreed price. LOL!!!

Have you checked out the Mazda SUV's? I think it's the CX9? I rode in one in DC last year that a client owned....it was very nice, rode well, was quite, and very comfy.

I kinda like the blue interior lights but to each his own. I really think Buick is trying to change their typical focus of the older crowd, especially with the 2010 Lacrosse, but I don't think the Enclave goes after the older crowd either...

Anyway, I think I solved your problem... get this...

http://www.lcpo.com/cpo_podetails.psp?ID=4...0&year=2008

I'm sure you can talk them down...

Damn!!! I just called, that car is sold! I would have to. I spoke with Carol in the pre-owned dept. So, if another one comes in with that price on it, she said I would be her first phone call. Yeah man. That car with that mileage was a awsome deal! Thanks for the look out Kyle.

I'm going to go and look at a Porsche Cayenne tonight. lol!!!

I hear ya about Audi. Too bad is all I can say. I rode in a friend's Q7 recently. Man what a vehicle! If I was in the market for a vehicle in that catagory, the Q7 would definitely be my choice if it weren't for their history.

How about this one?

http://www.lexusofpalmbeach.com/VehicleDetails/509925263

I don't know where in Florida you are so I'm looking at all dealers in Florida. There aren't any pics but I'm sure if you call they may get you some.

Ok, so I go and look at this Porsche Cayenne, and well,,,,,,no. Talk about crap gas mileage! he said if he drives it "easy" he can get about 15 mpg. with it, but when he drives it in town and uses the power it has, he gets about 12 mpg! Yeah, that's not gonna work. The inside was nice, but for as large a vehicle as it is, the driver and front passenger seats are tight. It's not until you turn your head and look back that you realize theres all this space back there, and the fact that it sits so much higher than a sports car, or any car for that matter. And while I sat there looking at it in his driveway I kept picturing it sitting in mine and well,,,it's just not that great a looking SUV/Crossover or whatever it is. I love the Porsche 911's, so you would think I would like it more, but I just don't. MAybe it would be different if gas mileage wasn't a concern, and I was buying a new Cayenne, and it was the 550 hp twin turbo version. lol!!! Personally, I think the whole SUV/crossover/ 500+ hp for a $100K plus is dumb. If you want that kind of power, and you have that kind of money to spend, then just get a dedicated sports/fun car and a seperate SUV/Crossover for when you need that. So the search is still on. I'm thinking about looking at the Nissan Murano this week, and the Cadillac SRX.

@Kyle Petree:

So, I ran this idea by the wife and well, she got kind of upset about me looking for another car for me again first. lol!! But once we get this situated, I may continue to pursue the LS for myself. I thought for sure all the LS 460's would be atleast around $65k+. $50K for an 08 LS460 with 18k miles on it is almost a no brainer! I wonder why the sudden lower prices on those? I still see them selling alot of places for alot more used. I wonder if some of the short term leases are ending and that maybe why?

Its the short term leases. I know, pre-owned LS460s are a steal! I saw an LS460L with 20k miles for $54k...thats an $85k car!

Sorry I've been hella busy with school and didnt have time to respond fast enough to this thread, but how long do you (sorry I really didnt read every single line of this thread also lol i just skimmed thru it) plan to keep this next car? Honestly, I'm starting to suggest looking into a 5 series BMW (if the rear lights are ok with u, a lot of people arent fond of it). It's big enough, for a little under $50k it's a fun car to drive!


A mechanic I know pretty well told me that yea Buick has that notion of "old people's car" but he says that the Enclave is the BEST luxury SUV out there. Not only quiet but he says it's the best bang for the buck!

VW is another story. Fun to drive also, not sure about long term reliability also, but they all take Premium gas though (even the simple $12k Rabbit)


Mercedes are great cars, but not for long term either. Personally have driven an ML55 AMG, ML350, E350, C300, C230 and they were all fun to drive! Sporty yet you feel the luxury in it. BMW is all sporty, not really "luxury" aside from it's name and gizmos.

Why is that the LS and GS models seem to depreciate faster than the ES and RX for example? Yes they're worth more to begin with, but it's the percentages lost per year that are so stunning...

So, what do you guys think about a Subaru Outback station wagon? It looks a bit small, but, I haven't sat in one yet. They look bigger this year also.

And I passed a Saab dealership and noticed they have an SUV sitting on the platform. Anyone know anything about Saab? I wonder what jet they stole parts off of to make that one?lol!!

I tried to convince my wife to get a Subaru Outback instead of her current 2004 RX330 AWD back in January of 2007 after I had sold her original 2000 RX300 AWD. The Subaru has much more bang-for-the-buck and one of the best AWD systems in the world. If you truly need an AWD crossover and you want to get a great one without spending a ton of money, the Outback ranks right up there at or near the top....

That was the Saab 9-7x (My company actually made parts for that!). It is based off the GMC Envoy/Chevy Trailblazer platform. Never driven one myself but it looks nice both on the inside and out.

I don't know what it is but I don't like Subaru, I have absolutely nothing to base that on, I just don't think I could buy one.

The Subaru Outback is really nice. I have a client with a brand new 2010, he likes it a lot. They travel in it extensively.

The Saab SUV is just a rebadged Chevy TrailBlazer...skip it.



Its because of the price point I think. I think people have a hard time spending $60,000 on a used car personally, whereas with an ES spending $35k or so is less of a concern.

I also think a lot of buyers lease these cars north of $50k, and leasing on the pre-owned car is no cheaper than the new car, so they just lease a new one instead.

I think a used LS is probably one of the "best buys" out there in the auto industry.

That makes sense.

I've been looking at videos of the LS and especially the LS600hL on youtube tonight... holy crap, it is seriously one of the most beautiful cars i have ever seen...

It's a beautiful car, my favorite car without question.

Ok, so I went and looked at a Subaru Outback, and not bad. Not bad at all. By design, it's a bit more utillitarian than luxury, but all in all pretty nice. I also took a closer look at the FX. Ok, it is pretty nice inside and it does drive very well, but (smirky headshake here) it just looks like a moon buggy or something. I just can't get next to it. And dang, their expensive! But unlike the Tahoe, I can reason the quality and refinement to justify the price tag.

In the full size luxury car segment,the LS is without question the king in my book, without going off the deep end and spending 2 or even 3x more. Even with the new S class Mercedes coming out, I think I still like the LS better.

Go drive an outback in hurricane rains at 80mph...you'll buy it on the spot, I guarantee you! I drove my 99' from Wilmington, NC to Charlotte back in 99' DURING hurricane Floyd, which flooded the entire state (was driving while it was flooding). I never went below 60 mph in that thing, and wasn't one bit scared or nervous about it. They're simply AMAZING to drive in bad weather. They actually drive better in bad weather. From that night forward, I called it the "Magical Water Spider". I loved mine. Only reason I got rid of it was because it was underpowered when I moved to Birmingham in 2001. That's when I got my Maxima. The Outback was one of my best vehicles I have ever owned. Infact, if my wife wasn't so resistant to the stigma of a station wagon, that 4runner sitting in our driveway would've actually been an Outback XT (turbo model). I will have another one in my life, I promise you that!

PS: In the 40k miles I put on it, not a single problem, not even a blown fuse.

Oh, yeah, I mean, Subaru wasn't even on our radar until I did some research and decided to go and take a look at one. Now I would say it's easily in my top 5, maybe top 3 when you consider price also.

The Outback is a great vehicle...no question...

I'd encourage you to go drive the MDX. My parents have a '08, and I LOVE driving it. It feels pretty sporty, and the SH-AWD is superb (up to 70% of the power to the rear and up to 90% to the front wheels). This car is terrific in the rain; the MDX just eats it up--it feels very heavy and solid. I guess this is a trait of a good AWD system since the Subarus are highly regarded in this area too. They have the Tech and power liftgate package. I wish it had keyless start, but they kind of make up for it with bump start and a sweet looking switchblade key. Dealer service is first rate too. Oh yeah, the nav actually works when the car is moving too!!

I know styling is purely subjective, but I don't see why people hate Acuras so much. I think it's a great looking car...
Click to view attachment


Otherwise, I'd find a new leftover Mercedes W211 bluetec (one of my absolute all time favorite cars). I saw one on ebay the other day that was $12k off the sticker...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...p;category=6335

The 010 Subaru Outback is a great looking vehicle- but still, it's a "Subaru". It's probably a lot of bang for the buck, but it still has that "Subaru" badge.

It's like the case of the Hyundai Genesis. The new Genesis flagship is incredibly good looking, has all of the same features you'd find in the LS and BMW 5 etc... and would probably last just as long as the Lexus. But the name. It's the name!

It's hard to justify spending big bucks on a "hyundai" when you can spend the same for a "lexus". Not because you think it's any lesser of a vehicle, but because of the name. When paying a lot for a car, part of that is the name, we all know it

You know Blake, Acura makes a great product. I've owned a few Honda Accords and they were tanks with great gas mileage. I guess I owe it to them to atleast go and seriously look at one, but I will say ahead of time, it's that dang huge chrome smiley face in the front that really turns me off. If that's shallow and dumb, then well, ok, but it's what I see everytime I look at them. I just keep thinking with all the creative minds and modern contemporary designs to shoose from, that they thought this one was it? (head shakes in dissapointment.) I really liked the previous model TL, and if it wasn't for the power difference of the IS350, that car would have been a very very close second. But alas, it twas not to bee. So, I'll go and look at one and see if I can overcome it and get feedback from my wife as well.

I'm not denying your point at all, in fact I mostly agree, but I guess I don't see Subaru as far down the ladder as you. The WRX, STI and Outback have been around for years and years on top of thier market. I know in the early 90's they didn't seem to offer any luxury items like leather, and dual zone a/c and what not, but they do now. And with thier Rally racing background, they really know how to build a tough vehicle. I do admit that I also like the "greener" production plant they have here in the US. I'm not saying I would buy one because of that, I have to like and live with the car, not the plant.

I find nothing wrong with the "Subaru" badge, honestly. They're a unique brand that has always remained true to their character. Nobody can compete with their DNA, which in my mind, puts them in their own category. They're not like Hyndia or Kia, who simply rip off design cues from luxury segments to make a cheaper version of an existing product. When I had my Outback, everybody loved it! Chics thought it was cool, guys loved the utility of it, and I loved the uniqueness of it. I'm serious, I'd trade that 4runner in the driveway for one in a heartbeat, if my wife wouldn't throw a fit. She's more focused on "brand image" than I am. I don't see "subaru", I see AWD speed buggy that is very comfy, safe, capable, and extremely reliable. Plus, looks good in any situation, from camping along the beach, to the country club.

You put your foot into a turbo charged Subaru, and you'll be watching traffic in your rear view mirror. The former Outback XT would hit 60 in the mid 5 second range. You try to spin out the AWD system, and you'll be having a ton of fun! I drove mine in 9 inches of snow in 2000 down in Wilmington. I couldn't get the tail to swing around. It would kick out about 45 degrees, then the AWD system would simply snap it back into place. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get it do to a 180 donut.

I'm bias to their assembly plant though, as my dad was responsible for bringing Subaru to Lafayette, Indiana in the early 80's to begin with. We use to live their (moved to OKC in 1984), and he got the city and state to issue the tax incentives to Subaru that brought them there. It's still there, and is one of the most beloved employers in that area.

They're simply a solid company, build solid products, don't follow the mainstream, and will simply run circles around the vast majority of automobiles on the planet - all day long.

Nobody's saying that a "Surbaru" compares with a Lexus...it doesn't, its not a luxury marque.



You can spend the same bucks and get a Lexus. But the cost of a Hyundai Genesis V8 will buy you not even a UL ES350. The Genesis is RWD, has a V8...the ES350 is FWD with a V6.

Just because the ES is a "Lexus" doesn't automatically mean its a better car...

I think the Genesis is a better car than the ES for sure. If it weren't for the name, they'd be more popular.

They sell very well as they are.



Then I don't quite understand your point. Since the ES is the only Lexus sedan you can buy with the same money a Genesis costs, then you're saying that the fact that the vehicle is a "Lexus" wins out over any other benefits the Genesis may have?

I do agree, brand makes a difference, I don't know how big a difference it makes though at the $40k price point. People buy non-luxury branded cars all the time for $40k. I would miss owning a luxury branded car if I bought a Genesis I admit.

Genesis was originally supposed to be its own marque with dealers, etc. Might have improved image, but would have also drastically increased cost...

I see people replace the Hyundai emblems on their Genesis' all the time...they make a winged Genesis emblem...

I've seen those to!!! LOL! Looks almost like a Bentley emblem. And they put those stupid plastic "air vent" stickers on the sides alot to.

Those emblems are from the Korean-market Genesis I think, at least they're oem!

I haven't seen the air vent stick-ons lol

Yeah, maybe that's a Florida thing. I see them on alot of Dodge Chargers and 300's too.