I'd like to start a discussion regarding the Lexus LS460 Navigation lock-out and what we, as a group, can do to persuade Lexus that we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how.

Recently, on a trip in Florida, I needed to re-route around some traffic. I knew where I wanted to go (a POI I knew). My wife, in the passenger's seat, was perfectly able to use the navigation system, were it not for the fact that it was locked out while we were in motion. I had to pull into a parking lot to make the selection. The traffic was so bad that getting back in took over 10 minutes (Orlando, go figure). The navigation system that was supposed to save me time ended up being more hindrance than help.

This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway, which is what some folks might do, or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination -- especially for the passenger to do the selection -- is both ludicrous and insulting.

I have more stories, but I'm sure you share most of them.

These features are "locked out" while the car is in motion, and I believe (as I think many of you may) that the use of these options should be our choice -- not the car maker's choice.

• Choosing a different destination (POI, Address, Phone, etc.)
• Choosing an album to play by selecting it directly, rather than having to page through them one-by-one
• Dialing a phone number when using the telephone
• Other features "locked out" during forward motion

What I want, and what I believe we all expect, is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

Two words: Mercedes-Benz.

Are you listening, Lexus? We've owned mostly BMWs and Benzes in the past, with a rogue Phaeton thrown in for good measure. AFAIK, none of the German cars impose this punitive approach. As much as my wife likes her LS460L, I will NEVER buy another car that locks out the technology I'm paying for. Both the Phaeton (my wife's car just before the LS460L) and my current (3 weeks old) Mercedes ML63 allow the driver or passenger to use the functions of the telematics (phone, nav, audio, etc.) without restriction. The voice control does NOT make up for this limitation of the Lexus. If Lexus is marketing the LS460L as technologically superior, then I want to see BMW and Mercedes commercials that specifically mention how Lexus treats their customers like 5 year-olds...

One more word: Garmin. They must sell a LOT more GPS units than Lexus sells cars, and ALL of them have the option to defeat the "safety in motion" feature. Toyota's castration of the LS460Ls capacities is absolutely asinine, insulting, and infuriating...

Agreed......Mercedes allows "all" modes to be changed by the owner and is part of their sales pitch against Lexus and has an azimuth for the screen to shift to the passenger. Mercedes owners are allowed to change "any" presets in the vehicle where as you have to "ask" your Lexus dealer to reprogram such basics as door lock features. The difference being..Lexus lawyers work overtime to treat us like children. Hope they are listening. A Real "pet peeve" of mine on the 460 versa the 550.

There should be an override lockout screen you can access through a hidden button on the screen

I agree that's unreasonable and make the features unusable

Get used to it, and its not just Lexus that does it. Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law, and everybody will have to fall in line.

Lexus has been making the same navigation system with the same lockouts since 1998, this is not new. Its heralded as the best in the business by tons of publications too.

Like I said in another thread, I've had this nav system for 4 years and I don't get it. Just set your destination before you leave or pull over. You don't need to be careening down the highway at 85MPH setting destinations anyways. I drive 25k miles a year and use the nav system extensively, it no longer bothers me.

You made reference to the DOT -- "Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law..." Could you please forward me either a link to that source or direct me to whomever gave you that information?

As a general note, I've been pleased with the comments from various folks. I, too, have had the navigation system in my other cars -- and, yes I had it in my 430 (which I could override when necessary). My choice in a Japanese car over a German car is purely personal. While I am happy the Germans did not worry so much about litigation, I no longer purchase Mercedes or BMW -- not a ding in any way (they are fine vehicles), just my personal choice these days.

I appreciate your (and everyone's) responses.

Absolutely, I will look for the article and post it here when I find it.

The Nav lockout is yet another example of corporate compliance versus customer service IMO. I personally find this to be a safety hazard versus a feature. I use my phone frequently in the car (with the bluetooth feature), so instead of using the large buttons on the nav screen, I use the small buttons on my phone. I'm responsible enough to do this without causing an accident. I agree with an earlier post, where my wife or kids easily work the other features when I'm driving (put a sensor in the seat for pete's sake).

With the money we are paying for these vehicles, someone will come up with an override chip I will gladly pay for to have this resolved.

I apologize for the ranting but I'm getting really fed up with the government and the bar holding manufactures accountable for stupid individual behavior.

Hopefully, capitalism will come to the rescue.

Unfortunately I have yet to be able to find the article I was reading that addressed the upcoming plans for standardizing lockouts for in car navigation systems, I'll keep looking but my office is a jumbled mess of magazines and publications so who knows when it might turn up. It was a car publication though from several months ago...

Anyways basically the article talked about the ever increasing functionality of in car navigation and entertainment systems and proposed upcoming changes in what carmakers will be able to allow drivers to do while the car is in motion. The problem with the law is the car being "in motion". Video displays within the driver's line of sight are already outlawed in the US.

No problem, but if you run across it, please post the information. There's a lot of talk on Capitol Hill about a lot of things. As mtork and others have said already in this forum, the fact that we must resort to the smaller buttons on our hand-helds to make a phone call can be arguably more dangerous than using the Nav system's nice, large numbers on the user-friendly touch screen. And, who gets sued when someone is messing with their Garmin or iPod and gets into an accident? According to the posts, so far, we agree that the responsibility lies with whomever is behind the wheel in these situations.

Lexus (really Denso, the company that makes the Nav system and software) went to great lengths to provide an absolutely wonderful user interface. It's much (no, really -- much!) improved from the LS430 (which was worlds better than the LS400's).

For me, using a touch screen is infinitely more safe than trying to use the "knob" I found in other vehicles. Lexus made sure that you would need minimal time looking at the screen.

I believe folks here would agree that an effective argument can be made to Lexus to relax its grip on at least the main controls of the Navigation system, telephone and album lists; but I'll bet folks would agree that when you're driving, playing the video of a DVD could certainly be "locked out" if we had to compromise.

Please, folks, continue to post your issues. Let's give Lexus something to chew on!

I will, I even google searched for it online but it didn't come up.

I agree with you, I don't understand why you can't use the phone buttons on the nav screen. You do however have the voice dialing control for the phone which works pretty well, as for who gets sued if someone is fiddling with a Garmin or iPod, I'm sure people have sued Garmin and Apple, and we all know how hard legislators are working to ban the use of cell phones and handheld devices in cars.

I'm from the school where I try and make the best of a situation. Since Lexus has been making these nav systems with these lockouts for nearly 10 years the odds of them changing that practice are not good. They have provided several new features to help increase the system's functionality while moving such as the voice interface which is MUCH improved and will only get better. I just prefer to try and make the system work for me and I have, it no longer bothers me.

If you want to try and organize a group to try and get Lexus to change this practice (as well as the many other companies who do this) go ahead, but I doubt you'll be successful.

I too have been frustrated with the restrictions placed on the available electronics in the LS460. Unfortunately, even if we could get Lexus to enable these features with a "Super Waiver", that does not protect them from the lawyers of the family you ran into when you were watching a DVD. I suspect the only way to use all the features in modern vehicles will be hacks and bypasses--where Lexus has no control, IE liability.

With the above quote in mind...

There is a way to trick the navigation system into thinking you're not moving anywhere (thus enabling you to use the locked out functions) but it disables the "dead reckoning" part of the nav system which runs off the wheel speed sensors. The GPS side of the nav system will still peg your car on the right part of the map, unless you go into a tunnel where the signals can not be received.

The use of such a modification would certainly be moving the responsibilty of safe driving from Lexus shoulder's to the owner of the modified vehicle. The lawyers of the family you ran into might also go after the shop that tricked the navigation system.

That's an interesting point LexusTech117 raises; but rather than make rogue alterations to a system I know technically nothing about, I think it might make sense for us to group together and send Lexus an open letter requesting that they make these features available to those who want them. I'll bet Lexus has received many letters from disappointed folks.

I believe Lexus wants to pursue perfection as much as they do customer satisfaction. If I get 50 or more posts to this subject (50 individuals), I'll be happy to post a letter and provide a way for folks to "digitally sign" the letter.

For the everyday person who buys an LS (or an ES; or any other Lexus for that matter) and wants to use the functions I've mentioned in this section, there's no reason they should resort to hacks, cutting wires or any other third-party work being performed on their cars. Lexus should get in front of this now, before this request becomes something much more formal.

I believe Lexus should allow "unlocking" these features; and if they need to, for their own protection, have the owner sign a waiver, then so be it.

Who else agrees?

Nix, That would open an array of lawsuits toward the signatores in the event of an accident. Surely passed on to the insurance council. The best way is to let time and pressure from the competition avail. I do not agree with the right to watch DVD's on the front screen but do have a desire for my "passenger" to change to an alternate route. I believe Mercedes accomplished that with an "azimuth" correction. That means the screen shifts the "content" of the gps enabling the passenger to change the input so the driver cannot see it. Gotta Love those Germans.

I appreciate your posting. While I disagree with our assertion that the folks who might sign any sort of letter or petition would be held liable, I do agree that viewing a DVD while driving (as I'd indicated in the initial posting) certainly wouldn't be a function that I'd ask to have activated while in motion.

Rather, to restate here for clarity, I think the basic features allowing navigation selection, phone and music selection is sufficient.

Everyone else -- RFeldes has had a say; what about anyone else who is frustrated with the "lock outs" in our new Lexus LS460's?

I would be happy to sign a petition that would allow the use of the feaures you have mentioned.

I'm with you on this. We have a 2004 LS 430, a vehicle I consider as closer to my idea of perfection than any car I've ever owned, as well as a 2004 RX 330 - both with navigation systems. If I were to list my single aggravating item about the car after three years of ownership, it would definitely be the lockout of navigation and telephone features, even if the car is barely rolling forward. There is the obvious distraction factor, but it's certainly no worse than any other of the many distractions a driver faces. So it takes responsibility on the part of the driver to know when to not be distracted, even for a very brief time. Your experience near Orlando has been repeated by me on more occasions than I care to recall. Include me as one of the 50, or however many this turns into.

I bought an '07 ES350 in October and tried using their arbitrations service to return the vehicle, since it was a significant change in vehicle operation resulting in a safety hazard and the removal of the override was kept from me when I bought the car . More than 2 months later, my claim was denied as being outside the scope of the NCDS (National Center for Dispute Resolution- they apparently only deal with Warranty issues) when Lexus filed a motion to deny my claim on that basis.

I am looking at other options right now- I wonder if people would be willing to contribute to hire a programmer to hack the Nav 6.1 system and offer it just as we would like? That is cheaper than trading it in for another vehicle, though I find Lexus' disregard for customer wishes very arrogant.

Doug Bates

I am new to Navi systems having done fine without them over the years. Having opinions about their functionality is highly subjective, and dependent on vehicle use. When I first used the one in my LS, I was somewhat indifferent, but grew to appreciate it when I needed it. I leave it turned off most of the time. Even now I find myself looking at maps to find directions, and kick myself halfway there for forgetting to use it; especially is I have trouble locating my destination. I've even asked for directions at a gas station and wondered why afterwards. Peculiar isn't it? When I do use it, I find it very useful & highly functional. Seeing become disabled when the car moves hasn't really bothered me, but losing some of the audio functions has been annoying at times. That's been my experience anyway...

Hi, Doug! I'm sorry your arbitration process didn't give you the outcome you deserve. If you are unsatisfied to the degree you said, it's certainly fair to expect Lexus to take the vehicle back -- that is, if they relentlessly pursue Customer Service as much as they do Perfection. With Lexus, we aren't used to having to worry about "caveat emptor" when it comes to buying a Lexus -- they've done an excellent job with the LS460L; it's just this nagging issue about who should decide whether I use the features in the car -- the Car Maker or the Car Owner. My vote is: the Owner.

I, too, am looking for options; but I feel that hacking the system, whether it be by cutting a wire or breaking into the software aren't the right options. I doubt your ES isn't the last car you'll ever own. I'm sure my LS isn't, either. I don't want to go through this again!

However, I do think we might think about formally making it known to Lexus that there are a lot of dissatisfied folks out there, regarding the Navigation lockouts specifically.

If it's all right with you, I'll add your name to the ever-growing list of folks willing to sign an open letter to Lexus (at this time, it's just an open letter).

I love my RX400H and I was planning on getting another one when my lease ended but it looks like I will wind up with another car 2 1/2 years from now. I hear that GM is coming out with a car called the VOLT. If is is available 2 1/2 years from now I will get it. Right now Lexus owns the hybrid market but it won't take long for other makers to catch up, if Lexus doesn't give us a NAV that works I am sure that there are others that feel the same way I do and they will get a different make.

There was one other poster on this thread that seems happy to let Lexus decide what is best for him and when he should be allowed to use his NAV. I prefer to think for myself and not be prevented from using all the functions of the NAV while moving.

They've been making this nav system for a decade with the same lockouts, sales just keep breaking records. As for nav, ever used GM's nav? Its a joke.



Come on. Obviously I would prefer the system be fully functional, at least with a passenger in the car. However, I am far too busy a man to whine complain and focus my energy on trying to change something that they're just not gonna change. So, instead I choose to find a way to make the system work for me and I'm happy, have been for 4 years. I like to be happy, not miserable. Obviously other people don't feel the same way, I'll send them some tums.



I don't see how. No other car manufacturer is as far along in hybrid powertrain development as Toyota, and other manufacturers that have similar hybrid technology (Honda's is NOT the same, Hondas cannot operate soley on battery power) like Ford and GM only have it because Toyota licensed them their previous generation hybrid technology! Toyota's already on generation three of its hybrid powertrain, nobody else even has one. Toyota's going to own the Hybrid market for a LONG time.

The question comes, are hybrid cars really the future? I personally don't think so.

Thanks for your input, however I'd like to refocus this discussion on the thread's title: "LS Navigation -- Call for a Class Action?" rather than becoming side-tracked on hybrids; although I'm sure the 600H does have the same Navigation block-outs that the 460 does.

Regarding your other comments, thanks for your opinion. However, I can't tell: are you in agreement with us, or are you not in agreement? Would you sign a petition to Lexus asking them to alter their Navigation system lockouts or not?

As one of the Management of this site, your voice may carry some weight.

I don't blame you lol, sorry for hijacking your thread

Sure, I'll sign the petition but I know its not going to do any good, and I'm perfectly happy if it doesn't.

Its not that I don't agree with you, its just that I don't think its that big an annoyance.

I'm flattered that you think my voice will carry weight, but its not going to make a difference. Their decision to lock out these functions came from exhaustive consultation with attorneys I'm sure, and with sales figures continuing to climb and the system getting excellent reviews these lockouts aren't going anywhere. In fact, with all of the litigation out there about cell phones and lawsuits, I'd be surprised if they didn't start locking MORE functions out.

Not at all, I appreciate your response. I'll add you to the list (it's growing nicely)!

I spent over three frustrating hours loading and managing/editing my albums on the HDD. I felt that most of the items could have been done by my wife while we are on the road traveling long distances. Also, I feel that Lexus lawyers have gone overboard with the lock out mantra........ we are smart enough consumers to recognize and buy a good product but so dumb that we don't possess cognative skills to know when an activity might be an distractions.?????

Sign me up for the class action.

Absolutely! JAM123 has hit the nail on the head! Here's another experience: I was driving, and my wife asked me what I was doing on the 5th of next month. Well, I've got a calendar on my phone, but there's one on the LS -- but, you've got it, it's locked out! It shows you the current month with the current day highlighted, but you can't advance to the next month unless you're stopped!

Hey, folks, JAM123's got it. Who else?

Why on earth would you need to access a calendar on the nav screen while you're driving. Thats horribly unsafe. Hand your wife your phone and have her look it up while you safely and responsibly drive the car.

This is precisely why the lockouts exist...

Hi, Steve. Thanks for your comment.

Have you seen the calendar on the new LS? It's fantastic. It's also quite useful, again, for the passenger to use (were it that the lockouts didn't exist). Another situation was where my wife and I were driving in Florida; and it was the end of the month. We were trying to figure out the next week's activites in our somewhat idle conversation while I drove. She was the one manning the Navigation controls (what little she could do, thank you Father Lexus).

On the 430, we simply overrode the lock-out and could have paged forward and talked about the next month's activities.

On the 460, we couldn't. Petty? Maybe. But, it's my feeling that I should be given the prerogative to choose and that prerogative has been taken away from me by Lexus when they think I shouldn't use it.

Safety? Interesting point you make. Now, contrast the nice, large display on the LS with looking at a cell phone for any reason at all -- its small screen and tiny buttons; talk about unsafe! I used to have nightmares before hands-free. Of course, nobody's telling the guy next to me on my drive home today -- as he swerved out of his lane trying to punch the buttons on his Blackberry.

So, Steve, who's going to take that guy's Blackberry away from him? Shouldn't the same rules apply?

Look, everyone: Steve's point is clear -- we shouldn't be messing with anything while we are driving that can otherwise distract from keeping our eyes on the road. Safety is absolutely number one in my book. However, and I keep saying this, it's not up to the car maker to decide for me how I'll use the equipment on the car. That's my responsibility.

So, Steve, thanks for your comment. I'd like to count you as one who agrees with me that it should be our choice about the lockouts, while being responsible and safe. I'd like to hear you're in agreement about that much, at least.

To others reading this post: Whether you agree with Steve, me or somewhere in between, chime in. This is an open forum, and I want to hear what everyone has to say.

Of course, I have a calendar in mine too. Regardless of how fantastic the calendar may be, if it counted down the days left in your life, its irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless to use an on screen calendar on the dashboard of a car when driving. It is also irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless to use the screen of a blackberry when driving, and in many states its illegal. I simply don't understand the desire to do something thats so inherantly unsafe.

I'd say my position is that I don't really care about the lockouts. I would like to see usability for programming destinations when the SRS sensor in the passenger seat detects a passenger but to be honest, I'm actually quite comforted about the fact that people can't look up calendar dates and program destinations into these things when driving down the road. Keeps all of us a little more safe.

For the record, MY car has no override. The override was introduced on the 04 model and lasted until the system was upgraded again in 07. Somehow I've happily driven the car with heavy navigation screen use for 4 years and 90k miles. I don't think its a big deal. I don't see how I can be any clearer about my position.

Great, Steve. Thanks for your comment. Glad you don't mess with your phone while you are driving. I stopped doing that myself the day I tried it -- not a great idea!

Now that we've heard from Steve, how about anyone else?

The real question here is: who should decide whether we can dial the phone (with that nice, large, easy-to-use, Lexus phone keypad) or change destinations or switch to another album (by name, not just up or down) while we are driving? The car maker? Or should we be responsible adults and decide for ourselves?

Steve's had his say, who else?

My car does not have the phone system, but our Prius does so i can't comment on that, I can only comment on the nav system and info system lockouts.

Perhaps the lockout should automatically be disabled when the pass side air bag is active indicating that there is a passenger in the front seat therefore allowing use of the nav features that are normally locked while the vehicle is moving.

I think that would be a great idea, I can simply guess the reason why that is not so is how easy it is to make that sensor believe there is a passenger there that is heavy enough to trip that sensor even when there's not, and the dangers associated with the seat being full of unsecured ballast in an accident etc.

Thanks, 07LS460! That's what this forum is all about: how should we persuade Lexus? Any system can be defeated, in some fashion or another. I'm sure somebody has already figured out which wires to cut or re-route or whatever. Could I disable these lockouts by putting something into the passenger's seat? Why yes, yes I could. I'm thinking I'd put my wife in the passenger's seat. And, occasionally, I'll ask her to do what I did on our last trip -- find a restaurant near where we were driving. Too much to ask? I think not.

All right, folks, let's keep talking about this. Steve's had a lot to say. A few others have also had some good thoughts.

Who else?

Oh well, here I go, Having driven and currently driving the Mercedes S550 and learning "all" options are up to the discretion of the driver. I find Lexus plays middle of the road..so to speak..I think that most persons able to afford vehicles of that stature have come to a point in their lives where they have shown resonsibility and are capable and have matured enough in their day to day driving responsiblities to afford their passengers access..long subject...to be able to use purchased features as they see fit. In other words Lexus..Baby Boomers want to use what we are given, as time is short..lol..See how stupid this argument is?? Simple..Lexus treats us as younger adults and Mercedes looks to a class above, older, wiser,more refined, wealthy, statured and stable....Simply stated. Lexus needs to "grow up" if they want a share of that elite market they seek and have stepped into with the the 460l and 600. I don't see it happening with their current mindset.

hey steve, since were using your name so much now...you say that it is easy to just put something heavy on the passenger seat...

but, in my old RX300, yes, i could just lift my behind from the seat and it would stop blinking the passenger light. In my new RX330, its a different story, no matter how i stand up, it still says passenger is there. i think there is more than one sensor, like on the back as well, etc. Its weird.

perhaps they should use the PCS's driver monitoring system and use it for the passenger monitoring system...lol

as for which position i take...i dont really car. Yes its annoying, but i really only use the nav when im somewhere that im not familiar with, behinds AC controls. Its not that hard to just pull over to the side of the road. but...my car does have the overide, which is annoying in itself. Anyways, its perfectly okay for this thread and the many that have popped up to be here, but were arguing/discussing for nothing. Lexus will not change its ways. it is a stubborn brand.

Count me in, I would love full access.

This is my first posting, so I hope it ends up in the thread regarding the lockocut of NAV and Audio functions in the LS460 series. First and foremost, I will happily endorse efforts to remove the lockouts that plague this car. I have follow the thread on this issue and am impressed with the rational and logical positions taken by those who want simple choice, and I notice a tendency of the Management responses to sound an awful lot like the Lexus talking points.

If I follow the logic of those who are so concerned with my/our safety, how about removing the mirrors on the back of the sunvisor so we won't get run into by someone doing their mascara (sp?). We should also disable the bluetooth whenever the vehicle is in gear so the cell phone addicts don't kill someone. How about a governor? I think we're limited electronically to 130 MPH and certainly noone needs to drive over 70, do you think? Come to think of it, the Mark Levinson system is downright hypnotic in it's induced cerebral euphoria- lock that baby out too, before I end up hitting someone in my mesmerized state.

The point is, my LS460L replaced my 2002 LS 430 that had 100K trouble free miles on it and was my wife's, or dog's and my delight. The 460 is going to be just as good, or better, but it won't be because some middle management do gooder had anything to do with it. The engineers and manufacturing people at Lexus must be a significant cut above the rest. My dealer is an absolute gem and I have to really feel sorry for him having to work with the Lexus middle. The marketing group, or whatever you wish to call them, know that this is the only car I'll drive and they must take great pleasure in irritating me with their arbitrary decisions on what I can and cannot do. How come I can open the trunk with the remote, but I can't close it with the remote? How come I can't lock the car with the remote if it is running? Why can't my wiife find a POI while we're driving? Why doesn't the remote we carry set the seat position? Why do the interior lights not shut off after x minutes when a door is left open? My 430 had a foolproof system, they went out when the battery was dead- maybe we have fixed this on the 460. The new car cost us $15K more than the 430, what happened to my radar cruise control? I got Chevrolet cruiise, must be safer. I think I want to stay allive more than Lexus does, so why don't they just build the cars and forget all of the social engineering?

The chances of getting the Social Protectors at Lexus to change any of their ways are about the same as my chances of throwing a rod in the 460 at 50K miles. It ain't going to happen. I think the only thing we can do is tell our story to the Powers polsters when they call, maybe we'll help the next guy.

Well-put, Heliski! I've tried to keep this thread on-topic, and I've tried to keep folks focused on the main issue: who should choose what we can use on the Navigation system, the car owner (this is my contention), or the car maker?

With respect to the Management responses, I can't comment other than to say that I think it's healthy for the management of this site to provide a sort-of "devil's advocacy" in some cases. And, if my argument can't survive their tests, perhaps it would be superfluous. However, the overall consensus, so far, is that folks are largely in agreement with my premise.

Some folks are, understandably, pessimistic about Lexus taking steps to alter this situation. But, I maintain that Lexus wants to satisfy their customers more than most (if not all) other car makers. That puts a lot of pressure on them. And, as we are eligible for updates from Lexus (Denso) on the Navigation software, my hope is that we'll be able to get an update as early as next year to remedy these issues -- EVEN if it comes with some sort of "waiver" for me to sign.

So, with that, who else has been quietly reading this thread who would like to chime in?

lol a waiver? i guess they should include that in the purchasing contract. Anyways, do we really think that japanese guys half way around the world are reading this as we type it? that they are thinking themselves..."hmm those americans seem to really hate our nav systems, lets just cave?". Its not only a battle of giving people what they want, its also about losing face. If they cave in now, it means they were wrong, and im willing to guess that like most asian countries, the japanese hate to admit defeat.

with that said, it is annoying, but there is no point since there are only two sides of the argument. Its a giant hole that will never be filled.

I have a couple of Lexus resources who provided some background, and it might help you to know the same.

It seems that several of the "lock-outs" were applied for the American market only (remember, I'm speaking about the LS460; I can't speak about any other model). The Navigation system is freely open in Japan on the LS460. However, my contacts did not know if similar lock-outs were applied for the European market.

And, yes, Lexus representatives in the American market are actively watching this site (several threads, not just this one).

Of course, the question remains for you, Rx330driver: cynicism aside, are you with or against? Be careful here, because this is basically about who should be allowed to choose: the car owner (you) or the car maker (Lexus).

lol...oh god they're watching us. Cant make any negative comments, might get something written down on my record.

anyways, im against it very much. Just today i used my nav, and the first thing i did at the stoplight was use the overide "hack" that still works and then went out to typing out where i wanted to go. However, with that said, i dont think anything we say can change this feature in the future. Thats all im saying.

Well, at least we can count you in the growing list of folks opposed to the lockouts (lucky for you, you still have a version of the Nav system on your car that has disclosed overrides)!

Okay, Rx330driver's on-board.

Who else?

Well, LS460L, it would seem to me that there are a lot of current LS430 owners who have become accustomed to being able to take charge of their destiny. Perhaps a piosting on the LS430 forum would give prospective buyers of 460s reason to add their comments and objections. I seriouly doubt if I would have changed my mind on the car, but I sure would have made the dealer acutely aware of my displeasure with the arbitrary lockouts and deletions of things I had enjoyed on my 430.

Since I'm the only manager that has chimed in about this issue I'll assume this is directed at me.

I am first and foremost a MEMBER of this site. My opinions are offered as a member and Lexus owner. I do not own the site, I simply volunteer to help design and enfore the posting guidelines of the site and keep the forums neat and orderly. Thats all, I don't work for Lexus, don't get paid by Lexus (or anybody for this by the way), I don't even own a share of Toyota stock. As for the site, Lexus has no ownership interest in the site either and has no input on anything we do here, this site is owned by one private individual.

Just because I don't see what the big deal is about the lockout doesn't mean I'm a product shill.

Hello, needone! You're right! We have a 430 as well (wife's car). I customarily unlock the navigation when we're in her car. BTW: fantastic car, the 430 (my wife won't let me drive it!).

I'll think about how to position a thread that points folks over here.

I can only speak for myself, but I started this thread to get differing opinions. Steve, you've been vocal, and it's perfectly all right for folks to say they like the lock-outs (for whatever reason). All I ask folks to do is stick to the topic, try to keep to the facts, and bring honest opinions here. I believe your posts are honest and heartfelt.

I'll bet there are other folks out there who have been silently reading this thread. Doesn't matter to me with whom you agree; but we'll never know if you don't weigh in.

So, to the silent readers: whatsayyou?